YEC's cannot reconcile "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2 with the same 2 words in Jer 4:23!

[SavedOnebyGrace]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I think it begins at the end of v.2, with the Holy Spirit hovering over the waters.

You're splitting hairs. There was no creative work done in Genesis 1:2. The Spirit hovering over the waters is NOT a creative work.

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I agree.  But given the speed of light and the huge distances that have been measured using the light-year, it's obvious that the whole universe is quite old.

Agreed.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

5 hours ago, BeyondET said:

I do as well believe the days are time periods and some restoration happened in earth's existance. 

I've studied the Day-Age understanding of creation at length. I don't have a strong opinion of Day-Age verses 24 hour days understanding. I understand the arguments supporting both and I just don't have enough knowledge.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

Going forward, we should all define what DAY means to us. Biblical days may be time periods instead of 24 hour days. I lean towards that understanding but can't be dogmatic about it. Some people change the definition halfway through the restoration days once Adam is created.

[BeyondET]

43 minutes ago, SavedOnebyGrace said:

I've studied the Day-Age understanding of creation at length. I don't have a strong opinion of Day-Age verses 24 hour days understanding. I understand the arguments supporting both and I just don't have enough knowledge.

Yom can represent quite afew different lengths. I can't say for sure the day length was equal to earth or the length on another planet in the solar system or on the galactic level.

Looking at the words being used, evening and morning. In Moses time there was no mechanical clock. Time was measured by sunlight casting a shadow on a stick and star counting.

What was true to them and today is that there is around 18 minutes each evening and morning that light is visible but the sun isn't high enough in the sky to cast a shadow. That was a unknown amount of time back in those days. Imo the days in scripture was written for people back then who didn't know that length of time in those periods about 36 mins each day and today without a mechanical clock.

I don't know if the universe is around 14 billion years because there might be stars possibly older than that. But I do believe its older than 6,000 years, pando tree colonies in Utah are around 900,000 years old. Sure God can do such things quickly but having an endless amount of time to create, a presto universe doesn't seem logical imo.

Edited August 15, 2023 by BeyondET

[SavedOnebyGrace]

58 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

Yom can represent quite afew different lengths. I can't say for sure the day length was equal to earth or the length on another planet in the solar system or on the galactic level.

Looking at the words being used, evening and morning. In Moses time there was no mechanical clock. Time was measured by sunlight casting a shadow on a stick and star counting.

What was true to them and today is that there is around 18 minutes each evening and morning that light is visible but the sun isn't high enough in the sky to cast a shadow. That was a unknown amount of time back in those days. Imo the days in scripture was written for people back then who didn't know that length of time in those periods about 36 mins each day and today without a mechanical clock.

I don't know if the universe is around 14 billion years because there might be stars possibly older than that. But I do believe its older than 6,000 years, pando tree colonies in Utah are around 900,000 years old. Sure God can do such things quickly but having an endless amount of time to create, a presto universe doesn't seem logical imo.

The age of the universe was said to be about 14 billion years old, but now some astrophysicists are claiming the universe is twice as old. They are all considering a physics we mere mortals can understand. God's majesty is beyond words and numbers.

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, BeyondET said:

The bible doesn't say count backwards in the genealogy to determine Adam's age. So why do people do it?

Curiosity, for one.  But who cares WHY people do it?  

10 hours ago, BeyondET said:

You think the age of those people are for only one reason.

Really?  So what is that "one reason"?  Can you articulate it?

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, BeyondET said:

I flatly deny saying extra days, I'll repeat myself again I said other days not extra days.

The Bible specifically mentions 6 days of creation (restoring) and a 7th day of rest.  Please explain how "other days" doesn't equal or mean "extra days".

10 hours ago, BeyondET said:

You don't want to admit you make mistakes sometimes.

I just quoted exactly what you posted.  So now you need to clean up your posting by explaining how 'other days' doesn't mean 'extra days'.  That means explaining what these so-called 'extra days' mean and prove it from Scripture.

Should be interesting.

[FreeGrace]

6 hours ago, BeyondET said:

We both have been pushing back against each other.

Not exactly.  I have been providing evidence from the Bible that supports what I say.

What I DO push back on are claims that have no evidence from the Bible.

[FreeGrace]

6 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Good point about Jeremiah 4. Verse 27 mentions it wasn't a total destruction. And since things have been planned, some of Jeremiah 4 is still to come.

Jeremiah 4

27For this is what the LORD says: “The whole land will be desolate, but I will not finish its destruction.

28Therefore the earth will mourn and the heavens above will grow dark. I have spoken, I have planned, and I will not relent or turn back.”

So, a "desolate land" isn't a wasteland, huh?  Of course it is.  That's what besieging armies do to lands that they invade.  

And your "point" about Jer 4 not being "a total destruction" is irrelevant.  After what a besieging army does to the land that it invades, the land does need a restoration:  replanting of seeds, rebuilding what was destroyed, etc.

This is obvious to reasonable people.

Here is the point once again:

"tohu wabohu" is assumed to be a description of original creation EVEN THOUGH "tohu wabohu" is clearly a description of the result of a besieging army that destroys the 'whole land'.

And you can't explain that.

[FreeGrace]

5 hours ago, SavedOnebyGrace said:

You're splitting hairs. There was no creative work done in Genesis 1:2. The Spirit hovering over the waters is NOT a creative work.

No, it's the beginning of God's restorative work.