YEC's cannot reconcile "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2 with the same 2 words in Jer 4:23!

[BeyondET]

16 minutes ago, teddyv said:

If anything, it supports the cosmology of primordial chaos.

I agree, that's a more logical state of the early universe. Some of those elements in the beginning was created into a sphere.

Edited August 16, 2023 by BeyondET

[teddyv]

22 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

I agree, that's a more logical state of the early universe. Some of those elements in the beginning was created into a sphere.

Just to be clear, I don't see the ANE cosmology/chaos as an actual historical/material state of the universe or earth as this was a conceptualization of the world and universe by people limited in their technological ability to understand the material reality of the universe (and not because they were dumb, or anything like that).

I can grant the the current model of the universe could be described as having a period of chaos and lack of form, but while somewhat compelling to compare to, it is likely coincidental to the ancient Israelites, and their contemporaries, cosmology.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I don't see how there could be anything BEFORE creation.  Remember Psa 33:6,9- God spoke everything into existence.  So how could there be any kind of "wasteland" before creation.

Genesis 1:2 and Jeremiah 4:23 refer to a wasteland before restoration of the land. There is no creative work in Genesis 1:2. Creative work is present in Genesis 1:1. The statement in Genesis 1:2 is a "survey of the land" that God will perform His work on. This is the state of the land after the judgements of Jude 1:6 and 2 Peter 2:4 mentioned in the New Testament, probably the judgement of the Angels who fell away not keeping within their own position of authority.

(Jude 1:6)  And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— (ESV)

(2 Peter 2:4)  For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; (ESV)

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Rather, there WOULD be a wasteland AFTER creation, in which God then restored the earth to a condition upon which man could exist.I said the END of the verse shows the BEGINNING of the restoration. I separate original creation from restoration, which is obvious from Gen 1:2ff.

This is an error on your part. As Jude and Peter write, and supported by 1 Enoch which was also read in Synagogue and quoted in the New Testament, Angels were judged and some were put in chains for final judgement later. This likely happened between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:3. There is no creative work going on anywhere in Genesis 1:2 unless count surveying the present state of chaos on Earth, only judgement.

Highly recommend Dr. Michael S. Heiser's book entitled "The Unseen Realm"

Edited August 16, 2023 by SavedOnebyGrace

[SavedOnebyGrace]

1 hour ago, teddyv said:

If anything, it supports the cosmology of primordial chaos.

The Bible sometimes uses a single sentence or phrase to indicate a long period of time. For example, going from Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 1:2. Science can point in a direction, but both Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 leave us much room to ponder.

 

[teddyv]

7 minutes ago, SavedOnebyGrace said:

The Bible sometimes uses a single sentence or phrase to indicate a long period of time. For example, going from Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 1:2. Science can point in a direction, but both Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 leave us much room to ponder.

 

Certainly that is a one possible interpretation.

As an aside, a pastor once pointed out that, assuming the 6000 year old premise of the YEC's, Genesis 1-11 essentially covers 1/3 of the history recorded in the Bible.

[BeyondET]

1 hour ago, teddyv said:

Just to be clear, I don't see the ANE cosmology/chaos as an actual historical/material state of the universe or earth as this was a conceptualization of the world and universe by people limited in their technological ability to understand the material reality of the universe (and not because they were dumb, or anything like that).

I can grant the the current model of the universe could be described as having a period of chaos and lack of form, but while somewhat compelling to compare to, it is likely coincidental to the ancient Israelites, and their contemporaries, cosmology.

I agree with them having limited ability to understand the materials in the universe. An example is "He made the stars also". Ancient people called the solar system planets wondering stars for they had no idea the wondering stars were actual orbiting planets.

Edited August 16, 2023 by BeyondET

[teddyv]

10 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

I agree with them having limited ability to understand the materials in the universe. An example is "He made the stars also". Ancient people called the solar system planets wondering stars for they had no idea the wondering stars were actual orbiting planets.

True. And they were observant and clever enough to understand the motions of the sun and moon well enough to predict eclipses.

[BeyondET]

13 minutes ago, teddyv said:

True. And they were observant and clever enough to understand the motions of the sun and moon well enough to predict eclipses.

Yes indeed except they thought the sun moved. Though the sun does move around the center of the galaxy but that's such a long process can't observe its movements.

Edited August 16, 2023 by BeyondET

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Certianly didnt use the word wasteland anywhere in that verse.

I copied from biblehub and YES "tohu" WAS TRANSLATED as waste.

2 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Emptiness was a preferred word, thanks for posting all the verses that shows that.

"emptiness" translates "wabohu".  The issue is "tohu", and all the translations used "waste", "chaos", "desolation", etc.

2 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Since wasteland isnt used for bohu in all instances. Genesis 1:2 is the place it isn't used either

This is quite an excellent example of denial.

2 hours ago, BeyondET said:

How about post all the Genesis 1:2 verse Translation let's see how many use wasteland?

Why bother?  It is a bogus translation, when the other 2 verses that include "tohu wabohu" clearly indicate a description of chaos, desolation, waste, etc.

I'll tell you again what "tohu" CANNOT mean:  formless/without form.

If you can see something, you are seeing its FORM.  

So Gen 1:2 FAILS at properly translating "tohu".  But neither Jer 4:23 or Isa 34:11 failed.  

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, teddyv said:

If anything, it supports the cosmology of primordial chaos.

Can you define "primordial chaos"?  What it is, and when it showed up.  Thanks.