YEC's cannot reconcile "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2 with the same 2 words in Jer 4:23!

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I'm not sure what this has to do with being a YEC, since I'm a YEC and I have never for a moment thought the passage in Jeremiah was connected to Genesis. I don't know why anyone would ever think they are related. Even a casual; glance at Jeremiah 4 clearly shows it has NOTHING to do with the creation account. I'm not sure why people think it does.

You are simply missing the point.  Both verses have the SAME 2 WORDS, "tohu wabohu".  Both are translated as "formless and void".  

The meaning has to be the SAME in both verses because the words are the SAME.  That is the point.  

In Jer 4:23 the context very clearly shows that "tohu wabohu" describes what an invading army did to "the whole land".  

God didn't give any details about HOW the earth BECAME "tohu wabohu".  

Those who believe that "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2 was part of original creation, have to deal with the fact that "tohu wabohu" describes total destruction in Jer 4:23.

That's how the 2 verses are linked.  

So, "tohu ewabohu" cannot be describing original creation AND total destruction.

That's the point.

[RV_Wizard]

Without form and void = Gaseous state.

Then light was formed, the earth solidified and began rotation; day 1.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

Without form and void = Gaseous state.

Even gases HAVE form when visible.  EVERY object has form when visible.

In fact, some people spend time lying on their back and staring at clouds to see what kind of forms they see!

If "tohu wab0hu" in Gen 1:2 describes a "preformed" earth as just a "gaseous state", then how do you understand the SAME 2 words "tohu wabohu" in Jer 4:23 where they describe the result of an invading army on "the whole land"?

Here's context:

7 A lion has come out of his lair; a destroyer of nations has set out. He has left his place to lay waste your land. Your towns will lie in ruins without inhabitant. 

8 So put on sackcloth, lament and wail, for the fierce anger of the LORDhas not turned away from us. 

9 “In that day,” declares the LORD, “the king and the officials will lose heart, the priests will be horrified, and the prophets will be appalled.” 

10 Then I said, “Alas, Sovereign LORD! How completely you have deceived this people and Jerusalem by saying, ‘You will have peace,’ when the sword is at our throats!” 

11 At that time this people and Jerusalem will be told, “A scorching wind from the barren heights in the desert blows toward my people, but not to winnow or cleanse; 

12 a wind too strong for that comes from me. Now I pronounce my judgments against them.” 

13 Look! He advances like the clouds, his chariots come like a whirlwind, his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us! We are ruined! 

14 Jerusalem, wash the evil from your heart and be saved. How long will you harbor wicked thoughts? 

15 A voice is announcing from Dan, proclaiming disaster from the hills of Ephraim. 

16 “Tell this to the nations, proclaim concerning Jerusalem: ‘A besieging army is coming from a distant land, raising a war cry against the cities of Judah. 

17 They surround her like men guarding a field, because she has rebelled against me,’ ” declares the LORD. 

18 “Your own conduct and actions have brought this on you. This is your punishment. How bitter it is! How it pierces to the heart!” 

19 Oh, my anguish, my anguish! I writhe in pain. Oh, the agony of my heart! My heart pounds within me, I cannot keep silent. For I have heard the sound of the trumpet; I have heard the battle cry. 

20 Disaster follows disaster; the whole land lies in ruins. In an instant my tents are destroyed, my shelter in a moment. 

21 How long must I see the battle standard and hear the sound of the trumpet? 

22 “My people are fools; they do not know me. They are senseless children; they have no understanding. They are skilled in doing evil; they know not how to do good.” 

23 I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty; (tohu wabohu) and at the heavens, and their light was gone.

It is clear from the text that "tohu wabohu" describes the total destruction of "the earth" in v.23, the result of an invading army.

Why accept "tohu wabohu" as part of the CREATION process in Gen 1:2 but then have to ACCEPT that "tohu wabohu" describes total destruction of the land in Jer 4:23.

We have to be consistent with words.  

tohu wabohu only occurs in Gen 1:2 and Jer 4:23.  "tohu" occurs 10 times in the OT, and 5 of them are translated as "chaos", "confusion" and "waste place" in the NASB.

You can look them up on biblehub.com.  Both Gen 1:2 and Jer 4:23 are translated the same in NASB, as "without form and void", but that is just silly, as every object has form.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

Then light was formed, the earth solidified and began rotation; day 1.

No.  Psa 33:6 and 9 say that God spoke everything into existence.  Gen 1:1 describes the entire universe existing all at once, because God spoke it into existence.

From v.2 forward, the text describes the restoration that God did to prepare the earth for man's use.  Man cannot live on the earth as an uninhabitable wasteland (tohu wabohu).  Therefore, the 6 days are 6 literal days when God restored the earth.

[RV_Wizard]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Even gases HAVE form when visible.  EVERY object has form when visible. [/quote]

No, gasses yield to fill the space.  A gas cloud may look like something, but it doesn't maintain a constant perimeter.  That's why when you look at a cloud you may only see Snoopy on a doghouse for a moment before it becomes something else.

Quote

 Gen 1:1 describes the entire universe existing all at once, because God spoke it into existence.

No, Genesis 1:1 is a declarative statement that God created the Heavens and the Earth.  Then it goes into detail about the process.  The sun, moon and stars didn't come about until day three.  

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by RV_Wizard
incomplete post

[FreeGrace]

42 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said: 

Even gases HAVE form when visible.  EVERY object has form when visible. 

No, gasses yield to fill the space.  A gas cloud may look like something, but it doesn't maintain a constant perimeter.  That's why when you look at a cloud you may only see Snoopy on a doghouse for a moment before it becomes something else.

You just admitted that gases DO have a form.  A form that is constantly moving.  So what?  I gave a great example of gazing at clouds, all of which have a describable form.  The fact that it changes doesn't mean it doesn't have a form.  

  Quote

 Gen 1:1 describes the entire universe existing all at once, because God spoke it into existence.

No, Genesis 1:1 is a declarative statement that God created the Heavens and the Earth.  Then it goes into detail about the process.  The sun, moon and stars didn't come about until day three.

OK, now explain HOW the words "tohu wabohu" can be used to describe the earth during the CREATION PROCESS in Gen 1:2 AND the same words be used to describe the earth after TOTAL DESTRUCTION by an invading army.

And, please figure out how to format posts.  When I clicked on the "quote" button, all I got was a blank post.  So I had to copy and paste from your response post in order to respond to it and everything make sense.

My responses are in red to separate them from your comments.

Edited August 7, 2023 by FreeGrace

[SavedOnebyGrace]

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Even gases HAVE form when visible.  EVERY object has form when visible.

Gases do not have form on their own. They take the form of the container they are constrained by or in the case of planet Earth, by gravity.

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

In fact, some people spend time lying on their back and staring at clouds to see what kind of forms they see!

Once again, gravity.

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

If "tohu wab0hu" in Gen 1:2 describes a "preformed" earth as just a "gaseous state", then how do you understand the SAME 2 words "tohu wabohu" in Jer 4:23 where they describe the result of an invading army on "the whole land"?

Here's context:

7 A lion has come out of his lair; a destroyer of nations has set out. He has left his place to lay waste your land. Your towns will lie in ruins without inhabitant. 

8 So put on sackcloth, lament and wail, for the fierce anger of the LORDhas not turned away from us. 

9 “In that day,” declares the LORD, “the king and the officials will lose heart, the priests will be horrified, and the prophets will be appalled.” 

10 Then I said, “Alas, Sovereign LORD! How completely you have deceived this people and Jerusalem by saying, ‘You will have peace,’ when the sword is at our throats!” 

11 At that time this people and Jerusalem will be told, “A scorching wind from the barren heights in the desert blows toward my people, but not to winnow or cleanse; 

12 a wind too strong for that comes from me. Now I pronounce my judgments against them.” 

13 Look! He advances like the clouds, his chariots come like a whirlwind, his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us! We are ruined! 

14 Jerusalem, wash the evil from your heart and be saved. How long will you harbor wicked thoughts? 

15 A voice is announcing from Dan, proclaiming disaster from the hills of Ephraim. 

16 “Tell this to the nations, proclaim concerning Jerusalem: ‘A besieging army is coming from a distant land, raising a war cry against the cities of Judah. 

17 They surround her like men guarding a field, because she has rebelled against me,’ ” declares the LORD. 

18 “Your own conduct and actions have brought this on you. This is your punishment. How bitter it is! How it pierces to the heart!” 

19 Oh, my anguish, my anguish! I writhe in pain. Oh, the agony of my heart! My heart pounds within me, I cannot keep silent. For I have heard the sound of the trumpet; I have heard the battle cry. 

20 Disaster follows disaster; the whole land lies in ruins. In an instant my tents are destroyed, my shelter in a moment. 

21 How long must I see the battle standard and hear the sound of the trumpet? 

22 “My people are fools; they do not know me. They are senseless children; they have no understanding. They are skilled in doing evil; they know not how to do good.” 

23 I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty; (tohu wabohu) and at the heavens, and their light was gone.

It is clear from the text that "tohu wabohu" describes the total destruction of "the earth" in v.23, the result of an invading army.

Why accept "tohu wabohu" as part of the CREATION process in Gen 1:2 but then have to ACCEPT that "tohu wabohu" describes total destruction of the land in Jer 4:23.

We have to be consistent with words.  

tohu wabohu only occurs in Gen 1:2 and Jer 4:23.  "tohu" occurs 10 times in the OT, and 5 of them are translated as "chaos", "confusion" and "waste place" in the NASB.

You can look them up on biblehub.com.  Both Gen 1:2 and Jer 4:23 are translated the same in NASB, as "without form and void", but that is just silly, as every object has form.

No.  Psa 33:6 and 9 say that God spoke everything into existence.  Gen 1:1 describes the entire universe existing all at once, because God spoke it into existence.

From v.2 forward, the text describes the restoration that God did to prepare the earth for man's use.  Man cannot live on the earth as an uninhabitable wasteland (tohu wabohu).  Therefore, the 6 days are 6 literal days when God restored the earth.

At some point in time, we should look at Strong's 127, (adamah). It is not referring to planet Earth as YEC like to believe.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, SavedOnebyGrace said:

Gases do not have form on their own. They take the form of the container they are constrained by or in the case of planet Earth, by gravity.

What kind of containers are clouds "contained" in?  Gases and liquids take on the form of whatever contains them.  However, gases that are visible STILL have form when released in the atmosphere.  

Why are you straining so hard to defend the notion that objects can be without form?

2 hours ago, SavedOnebyGrace said:

Once again, gravity.

At some point in time, we should look at Strong's 127, (adamah). It is not referring to planet Earth as YEC like to believe.

The real issue is about 2 words:  tohu wabohu.  Found in Gen 1:2 and Jer 4:23.  In the first verse, it is claimed to be describing the creation of the earth, and in the second verse, it is clearly describing the total destruction of "the whole land" by an invading army.

The 2 words MUST mean the same thing in both verses.  Knowing the details in the text of Jer 4, we see what the 2 words really mean:  an empty or uninhabitable wasteland.  So that's what it means in Gen 1:2, which means that v.2 isn't talking about originial creation, but what happened to the earth after creation, the details of which weren't given.

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

13 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

You are simply missing the point.  Both verses have the SAME 2 WORDS, "tohu wabohu".  Both are translated as "formless and void".  

The meaning has to be the SAME in both verses because the words are the SAME.  That is the point.  

In Jer 4:23 the context very clearly shows that "tohu wabohu" describes what an invading army did to "the whole land".  

God didn't give any details about HOW the earth BECAME "tohu wabohu".  

Those who believe that "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2 was part of original creation, have to deal with the fact that "tohu wabohu" describes total destruction in Jer 4:23.

That's how the 2 verses are linked.  

So, "tohu ewabohu" cannot be describing original creation AND total destruction.

That's the point.

I don't think I'm missing any point. Just because they are the same words doesn't prove they are talking about the same event. People are creating something that isn't there. This "gap theory" thing about Genesis 1:2 was invented in the 1800's by a person who believed in evolution. There is no hidden meaning in the words. This is a clever invention by the enemy to sow confusion and doubt about God's word. Sadly many have believed the lie and put more trust in man than God because of Man's supposed wisdom. Not sure what else to say. God Bless.

[teddyv]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

What kind of containers are clouds "contained" in?  Gases and liquids take on the form of whatever contains them.  However, gases that are visible STILL have form when released in the atmosphere.  

Why are you straining so hard to defend the notion that objects can be without form?

The real issue is about 2 words:  tohu wabohu.  Found in Gen 1:2 and Jer 4:23.  In the first verse, it is claimed to be describing the creation of the earth, and in the second verse, it is clearly describing the total destruction of "the whole land" by an invading army.

The 2 words MUST mean the same thing in both verses.  Knowing the details in the text of Jer 4, we see what the 2 words really mean:  an empty or uninhabitable wasteland.  So that's what it means in Gen 1:2, which means that v.2 isn't talking about originial creation, but what happened to the earth after creation, the details of which weren't given.

Clouds are condensed water, not water vapour

What do you continue to ignore context of the use in Jeremiah as compared to Genesis?

We use the same words in different contexts all the time. Why can't the Hebrews? There is several hundred years between the writings of Genesis and Jeremiah. Was the Hebrew language static?

[SavedOnebyGrace]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

What kind of containers are clouds "contained" in?  Gases and liquids take on the form of whatever contains them.  However, gases that are visible STILL have form when released in the atmosphere.  

Clouds are contained by air streams, weather patterns, gravity, and many other factors before the shapeless cloud is absorbed in the atmosphere and vanishes.

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Why are you straining so hard to defend the notion that objects can be without form?

It's no strain on my part. Thanks for your concern.

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The real issue is about 2 words:  tohu wabohu.  Found in Gen 1:2 and Jer 4:23.  In the first verse, it is claimed to be describing the creation of the earth, and in the second verse, it is clearly describing the total destruction of "the whole land" by an invading army.

The 2 words MUST mean the same thing in both verses.  Knowing the details in the text of Jer 4, we see what the 2 words really mean:  an empty or uninhabitable wasteland.  So that's what it means in Gen 1:2, which means that v.2 isn't talking about originial creation, but what happened to the earth after creation, the details of which weren't given.

I agree and have agreed with you on this subject. Pure gases expand until the container restricts further expansion.

Edited August 8, 2023 by SavedOnebyGrace