Justice Vs. Vengeance

[jesusandliberty]

Pretty interesting debate I saw on Twitter.

 

Scenario: A man who raped a child was murdered by the father of the victim while being transported in police custody. The story used as the example is this 1984 incident: https://www.wbrz.com/news/gary-plauche-s-1984-airport-slaying-of-son-s-kidnapper-abuser-now-a-book/

I say this is vengeance, which is clearly His to take, not ours, as stated in scripture. If the father had caught the criminal in the ACT and used violence to protect his child, THEN that would be justice. But being in police custody to me is a clear demonstration that this act was vengeance. 

Others said this was justice and is totally fine.

 

Thoughts?

[FJK]

Raw instinctive emotion says to hunt the rapist down and kill him, but God says we are to pray for our enemies and forgive those who sin against us.

[Who me]

3 hours ago, FJK said:

t God says we are to pray for our enemies and forgive those who sin against us.

We are to Love our enemies, those who do us harm, yes by praying intelligently for their good.

 

                                                         But

 

We are also to imitate God/Jesus, which means that like God we only forgive those who repent.

[FJK]

6 hours ago, Who me said:

We are also to imitate God/Jesus, which means that like God we only forgive those who repent.

I'm not a natural forgiving man, far more inclined to hold a grudge than to forgive those who (I perceive) have wronged me and have struggled with this continuously in my life.

What I've found is that until I forgive those who I think have done me wrong, be they individuals or groups of people or institutions, I am under their control in my very innermost thoughts and actions, they own me and control me in my own heart.  I am never at peace even when I think I am and am always at turmoil with myself over it.

What I've discovered through intensive self analysis is that this is what is at the root of the vast majority of my problems in my life, that all those problems are of my own making and only I can solve them by forgiving those I hold those little grudges against, Forgiveness sets me free and brings me a peace over things that I was never able to understand even existed  before finding it.

So, for me, forgiveness has nothing to do with another repenting of some wrong I perceive to have been done, it has to do with setting myself free of all that little mass of cumulative hatred and anger in my heart and bringing  real peace to my llife so I can try following God's plan for my life without the sin of forgiveness keeping me from it.

I do it for myself more than anything and set myself free by doing so.

This is how it is, this is how it works for me. I cannot speak for others but it might be something worth considering for those whose life is in turmoil and find themselves unable to do anything about it.

[jesusandliberty]

3 hours ago, FJK said:

Forgiveness sets me free and brings me a peace over things that I was never able to understand even existed  before finding it.

Amen brother. Step 8 in Celebrate Recovery taught me this. You have to be ready to forgive without expecting anything in return from the other party. Being able to master this will set you free from SO many things. 

[JimmyB]

12 hours ago, Who me said:

We are to Love our enemies, those who do us harm, yes by praying intelligently for their good.

 

                                                         But

 

We are also to imitate God/Jesus, which means that like God we only forgive those who repent.

“For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matthew 6:14   I don't see repentance as a condition here.

"And when they could not bring him to Jesus because of the crowd, they removed the roof above him, and after having dug through it, they let down the mat on which the paralytic lay. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Child, your sins are forgiven.” Mark 2:4-5 ... or here

“Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses.” Mar5k 11:25 ... or here

“Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven;" Luke 6:37 ... or here

"And forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone indebted to us"  Luke 11:4a ... or here

"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” John 20:23 ... or here

"Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ has forgiven you." Ephesians 4:32 ... or here

"Bear with one another and, if anyone has a complaint against another, forgive each other; just as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive."  Colossians 3:13 ... or here

"The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up, and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven." James 5:15 ... or here

In other words, we must forgive because God forgave us.  Their repentance has nothing to do with it.

 

[Who me]

On 8/20/2023 at 7:22 PM, JimmyB said:

we must forgive because God forgave us.  Their repentance has nothing to do with it.

 

As imitators  of God we are to do what God does. How does God forgive?

It throughout the bible is conditional on repentance.  Then we must as the verses say we must forgive, regardless  of how we might feel about it.

[farouk]

6 minutes ago, Who me said:

As imitators  of God we are to do what God does. How does God forgive?

It throughout the bible is conditional on repentance.  Then we must as the verses say we must forgive, regardless  of how we might feel about it.

We do indeed need to keep 'looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith' (Hebrews 12.2) when it comes to matters of forgiveness.

[JimmyB]

5 hours ago, Who me said:

As imitators  of God we are to do what God does. How does God forgive?

It throughout the bible is conditional on repentance.  Then we must as the verses say we must forgive, regardless  of how we might feel about it.

Galatians 2:13-14, "And when you were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive together with him, when he forgave us all our trespasses,"  I don't see the word "repentance" here.  Or here...

Ephesians 2:1-10, "You were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, doing the will of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else, but God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ[—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.  For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God—not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we may walk in them."

[Who me]

17 hours ago, JimmyB said:

Galatians 2:13-14, "And when you were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive together with him, when he forgave us all our trespasses,"  I don't see the word "repentance" here.  Or here...

Ephesians 2:1-10, "You were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, doing the will of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else, but God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ[—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.  For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God—not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we may walk in them."

So you are saying g that sinners do not need to repent?

That Peters response to the crowd on the day of pentecostal,  to repent and be baptised was wrong?