Justice Vs. Vengeance

[Who me]

On 8/25/2023 at 3:30 PM, farouk said:

@Who me How important it is to have a forgiving spirit!

The command is to forgive, the context is when they have repented.

We are to imitate God, who has unlimited  forgiveness  for those who repent, instead of manufacturing feelings of forgiveness  which is the unbiblical  teaching.

To answer your question. We should be praying for the offender  that they repent, for ourselves  that we have the grace to be able to forgive.

[Who me]

On 8/25/2023 at 2:38 PM, JimmyB said:

The word "repent" doesn't appear in the prayer. Don't read something into Scripture that isn't there.

So you are saying that God forgives us because we have not repented of our sins!

The prayer says as God forgives us, so we forgive.

 

God forgives us because we have repented so we are to forgive those who have repented of what ever trespasses they have done against us.

[Who me]

On 8/25/2023 at 3:37 PM, farouk said:

@Who me

My mind goes to Ephesians 4.31-32:

"Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

³² And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."

Forgiveness is not easy, it takes courage and a humble dependence on God.

Ephesians 4 Paul is addressing Christians, about how we are to live together. Two key phrases,  " in your anger do not sin" and " forgive others as Christ has forgiven you"

Disagreements, offences will happen,  we are to be open with one another, telling a brother that his words or action has hurt us.  

If we are challenged in this way, we are not to react angrily but in humility listen, discuss and if we have offended apologise, then there has to be forgiveness. 

 

[JimmyB]

3 hours ago, Who me said:

So you are saying that God forgives us because we have not repented of our sins!

The prayer says as God forgives us, so we forgive.

 

God forgives us because we have repented so we are to forgive those who have repented of what ever trespasses they have done against us.

I never said that, so why are you twisting what I wrote?  

Secondly , it does not say God forgives us because we have repented.  It says "And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors" (NRSVue) or "and forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who sin against us" (NLT)  

Jesus told us simply to ask God for forgiveness; repentance is not stated or implied.

Additionally, Romans 2:4 says, "Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not realize that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?" 

Forgiveness is offered by God before repentance. The Lord Jesus atoned for our sins fully on the cross, prior to any repentance on our part.

 You are "putting the repentance cart before the forgiveness horse".

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by JimmyB

[Who me]

18 hours ago, JimmyB said:

why are you twisting what I wrote

There is no twisting, I respo ded to what you wrote.

Yes God has forgiven All sins, but that forgiveness  is only applied to those who repent.

We are to forgive others as God forgave us, on repentance.

[JimmyB]

1 hour ago, Who me said:

There is no twisting, I respo ded to what you wrote.

Yes God has forgiven All sins, but that forgiveness  is only applied to those who repent.

We are to forgive others as God forgave us, on repentance.

God's forgiveness applies to everyone!  A person accepts that gift of God by faith, not by works (including repentance).

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God—not the result of works, [including repentance!], so that no one may boast.'  (Boasting, as in "I have repented")

Jesus died on the cross as penalty for all sin, not just the sins of those who repent.

Luke 11:4a, "And forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone indebted to us."  There is no repentance required!  It is wrong to say "I will forgive you only if you repent"!  "We are to forgive others as God forgave us, on repentance" is unscriptural!

Please read this carefully!  John 3:16-18, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned, but those who do not believe are condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God."  Notice that repentance is not included here!

FORGIVENESS IS NOT DEPENDENT ON REPENTANCE!

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by JimmyB

[Who me]

On 8/31/2023 at 4:33 PM, JimmyB said:

FORGIVENESS IS NOT DEPENDENT ON REPENTANCE!

 

Paul. In 2 cor7:10 say that¹⁰ Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 

God frequently lamented, ' if my people who are called by my name will turn (repent)from there wicked ways and pray, then I will hear in heaven and heal their land.

The ot sacrifices  for sin were costly, only someone who was sorry for their sin would go through the effort of making a sacrifice for sin. They had to be sorry (repentant).

 

[JimmyB]

2 hours ago, Who me said:

Paul. In 2 cor7:10 say that¹⁰ Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 

God frequently lamented, ' if my people who are called by my name will turn (repent)from there wicked ways and pray, then I will hear in heaven and heal their land.

The ot sacrifices  for sin were costly, only someone who was sorry for their sin would go through the effort of making a sacrifice for sin. They had to be sorry (repentant).

 

What you have written is true, but it has nothing to do with our forgiveness, specifically that our forgiving others requires their repentance.

[Who me]

17 hours ago, JimmyB said:

What you have written is true, but it has nothing to do with our forgiveness, specifically that our forgiving others requires their repentance.

It has everything to do with our forgiveness.

We are to imitate  Jesus in how he forgives us.

Through Jesus all sins are forgiven, but sinners are not forgiven, they will be judged and punished  unless they repent.

We like God must have a forgiving nature, ready and willing to forgive those who are sorry for the hurt/harm they have done us.

This does not mean we harbour grudges, but that we pray for the offender, that they will come to know God and we pray for ourselves that we can forgive them.

 

[JimmyB]

6 hours ago, Who me said:

It has everything to do with our forgiveness.

We are to imitate  Jesus in how he forgives us.

Through Jesus all sins are forgiven, but sinners are not forgiven, they will be judged and punished  unless they repent.

We like God must have a forgiving nature, ready and willing to forgive those who are sorry for the hurt/harm they have done us.

This does not mean we harbour grudges, but that we pray for the offender, that they will come to know God and we pray for ourselves that we can forgive them.

 

"Through Jesus all sins are forgiven, but sinners are not forgiven, they will be judged and punished  unless they repent" is self-contradictory!  

a) "Through Jesus all sins are forgiven"

b) "... but sinners are not forgiven".

So which is it, a or b?

"We like God must have a forgiving nature, ready and willing to forgive those who are sorry for the hurt/harm they have done us." is 100% correct!

Again, we forgive others because God forgave us while we were still sinners!  Our forgiving others is not dependent on whether they repent or not!