Believers' Accountability and the Judgement Seat of Christ

[Vine Abider]

On 9/4/2023 at 12:43 PM, Mike Mclees said:

Alright, but hear is the regional question. "and if they don't repent, what?" 

What is unrepentance?   would it be as rebellion and unbelief? what if the Prodigal did not return to the Father? 

What if the prodigal son didn't return?  Would that change the relationship between a father and his son . . . that is, would they stop being father and son?

And if the son never returned and continued in debauchery, would the father send assassins to kill him?

I think not - the prodigal son will always be his child, fruit of his loins, and the father would never kill his son for misbehaving. The father will always love him and hope for the best. However, eventually every child of God will come to thorough judgement for what they did while in this body, and will be properly rewarded or reproved.  (this is not regarding sin, which Christ took, but rather whether their works were eternally profitable)

Edited September 6, 2023 by Vine Abider
add parenthesis comment at end

[Vine Abider]

On 9/3/2023 at 10:10 PM, Sower said:

I do know works done for show or bad motives get burned up prior to judgement.
I assumed those acts, like sin, never would be remembered,  nor rewarded.

This is the first time I have heard about being judged on the good done right.

         "I can do all things through him who strengthens me"

I went back to reread some posts and caught this, which I don't know was addressed.  If I'm catching your thought right, it's trying to discern between what sin is and unapproved works, right?

So we know that Christ dealt with sin in His amazing, substitutional sacrifice for us on the cross! And there is therefore no more condemnation for sin, to those who are in Christ Jesus (those who have believed in Him and therefore were regenerated with His life). The bema seat then is regarding our works.

But we're told in Romans 14:23 that whatever is done not of faith is sin. So your point about the unprofitable works we do (that are not done in faith) - those works won't even make it to the bema, because they are sin.

Is that what you are conveying?

[Sower]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

I went back to reread some posts and caught this, which I don't know was addressed.  If I'm catching your thought right, it's trying to discern between what sin is and unapproved works, right?

So we know that Christ dealt with sin in His amazing, substitutional sacrifice for us on the cross! And there is therefore no more condemnation for sin, to those who are in Christ Jesus (those who have believed in Him and therefore were regenerated with His life). The bema seat then is regarding our works.

But we're told in Romans 14:23 that whatever is done not of faith is sin. So your point about the unprofitable works we do (that are not done in faith) - those works won't even make it to the bema, because they are sin.

Is that what you are conveying?

No...

I said above, quote

"I do know works done for show or bad motives get burned up prior to judgement.
I assumed those acts, like sin, never would be remembered,  nor rewarded.

This is the first time I have heard about being judged on the good done right"

My understand of the bema seat judgement was/is simple. If we had good works we would be rewarded. As I said above, I have always thought that there was no acts we have done, say like sin, AND any thing else we did (not sin) that was any kind of action or "works" intended to, or not to specifically glorify God, or any other work that had a wrong motive. I had the impression that all that "burned up" works would not enter God's presence,  but only that which was pleasing to God.

Perhaps you understand that those bad worthless works actually DO enter God's presence and they are judged to our face, showing what was bad and then what was good.

That is why I said; This is the first time I have heard about being judged on the good done right"

Assuming only the GOOD works were being judged.
Whatever is going to happen, will. Doesn't change my desire to do what is right.
And then let God be the judge.

If I'm catching your thought right, it's trying to discern between what sin is and unapproved works, right?

Nothing to do with sin!!.....  Just works, fruitful vs un fruitful works.
Sorry the misunderstanding. Didn't know our good works would be judged, as I was unaware unfruitful works made it to the judgement and would have to be separated from the fruitful.

[Vine Abider]

24 minutes ago, Sower said:

Nothing to do with sin!!.....  Just works, fruitful vs un fruitful works.
Sorry the misunderstanding. Didn't know our good works would be judged, as I was unaware unfruitful works made it to the judgement and would have to be separated from the fruitful.

Thanks for the clarification. So I think the obvious place to look regarding this would be in 1st Corinthians 3:12-15

"Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, each one’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If anyone’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.  If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire."

From these verses it appears that all a believer's works will be tested by fire on this occasion, whether they are good or not.  So the good building materials (gold, silver, precious stones) and the poor building materials we might use (wood, hay, straw) will all be there for the testing ("our God is a consuming fire"). 

Is that your understanding?

[Sower]

7 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Thanks for the clarification. So I think the obvious place to look regarding this would be in 1st Corinthians 3:12-15

"Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, each one’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If anyone’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.  If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire."

From these verses it appears that all a believer's works will be tested by fire on this occasion, whether they are good or not.  So the good building materials (gold, silver, precious stones) and the poor building materials we might use (wood, hay, straw) will all be there for the testing ("our God is a consuming fire"). 

Is that your understanding?

*****************************************************************

God said it, and God is light. I get it, phony works are worthless, genuine works get reward. I suppose on a scale there is sin, already judged, then unacceptable works that get burned, then the good works that are acceptable, that will receive a reward.

           "for the day will show it ........tested by fire on this occasion."

*****************************************************************

           "If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss;
      but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire."

This verse sounds to me a bit more than simply a loss of rewards. The issue of salvation has been brought up. It sounds more serious, enough it seems to me for the Lord to say you sorta barely made it, so, as by fire. Yet,  Salvation is by grace and not by "works." Seems to me we haven't touched on how God looks upon our works that are burned.

Would be a good study to define them vs the acceptable good works. I'm retired six weeks now, working more hours than before, still building cabinets but now for our kids, and with less time you have me up late responding.   All your fault, VA.....
 

Think about  acceptable good works vs unacceptable works that will burn up.
May help to discern what distinguishes between the two, like motive etc, and where in the scriptures can we locate them.  Here's one I found, emphasizing the sharing of the gospel, the first priority good work. (Silver/Gold)

A study:     VERSE BY VERSE MINISTRY INTERNATIONAL

Question;   Concerning 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, if I don't do good works will everything I do burn up?

Let's begin by looking at the passage:

1 Corinthians 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
1 Corinthians 3:13 each manʼs work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each manʼs work.
1 Corinthians 3:14 If any manʼs work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any manʼs work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

In v.11 Paul says every good work we set out to accomplish must begin with the Gospel itself. The Gospel message is the foundation of every good work in the Church body. In fact it is the foundation of the Church itself. If our work doesnʼt begin with the advancement of the Gospel, itʼs useless from the start. Every good thing done on man's own intuition, for example social works, charity, various other good works, are not the mission and purpose of the church without Christ at the center and core reason for the acts of service. These acts of service are tools we use to support the mission but the mission is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. So we cannot begin our work for Christ on any foundation other than on the mission to spread the testimony of Jesus and Him crucified.  

Then Paul says we may build in one of two ways, on the foundation of Christ using valuable materials like gold, silver, and valuable jewels. Obviously, these materials are not your ordinary construction materials; they are precious and durable. Paul compares these valuable materials to the good works that please the Lord as they are valuable in building the Church body through believers, not an actual building.

On the other hand these scriptures indicate that we could build our metaphorical structure with ordinary materials like wood, hay and straw as these materials have no value long term.

Then in v.13, Paul describes that our work will be evident in a day to come, testing the quality of our work for the Lord. The day Paul is describing is judgment day, the day Christ assesses our life in service to Him. Judgement comes the day we die and face the Lord as Hebrews says:

Hebrews 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

Paul says that our work will become evident on judgment day. The word evident in Greek is phaneros, which means obvious. The quality of our work will be obvious to everyone, including us. Somehow the Lord will make it very plain what we did, whether good or bad. All the games we played and lies we told ourselves will end and in their place will be truth. The purpose of every test ultimately is to reveal truth.

Paul compares this test to a fire that burns away the worthless things and leaves behind only the sturdy, valuable things. Fire is commonly used to test the quality of metals as impurities are burned away leaving only the pure elements. In this same way our work will be evaluated on the day of judgment. 

Paul says in v.14 that if our work stands up to Christʼs scrutiny, we will receive a reward. The Lord is a righteous judge and He is also a good Father Who knows how to give good gifts. We can expect that our reward will exceed anything we might have gained for ourselves here on earth.

But for some, that judgment will not go well.

Paul says in v.15 that if a man comes into that moment without a proper legacy of service to Christ, then all that he brings will be burned up. While he may have been a Christian all his life, attended church a Sunday here or there, prayed when he thought about it, threw a few bucks in the collection plate from time to time but not much else concerning a walk with Christ or service to Christ. Whatever he did, the test of his life reveals a wasted opportunity. As mentioned, the fire of Christʼs judgment consumes everything the man accomplished.

He may have built a Fortune 500 company, had a fortune in the bank, he may be beloved by millions and done many great things…but they werenʼt things that mattered to Christ and the Kingdom.

Paul says that man fails his test…so what happens to him?

At the end of v.15 Paul says the manʼs entrance into the Kingdom isnʼt at risk! Salvation is not on the line, praise God! Paul says he is saved, but he comes through like someone walking through a fire. 

We should all be working today for a better outcome on that future day as we want to receive a good result. This test comes but once, and we have only one lifetime to prepare and those results last 1,000 years.

Our rewards (or lack thereof) will be ours to enjoy for the thousand year Kingdom.

 

[Ray12614]

7 hours ago, Sower said:

*****************************************************************

God said it, and God is light. I get it, phony works are worthless, genuine works get reward. I suppose on a scale there is sin, already judged, then unacceptable works that get burned, then the good works that are acceptable, that will receive a reward.

           "for the day will show it ........tested by fire on this occasion."

*****************************************************************

           "If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss;
      but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire."

This verse sounds to me a bit more than simply a loss of rewards. The issue of salvation has been brought up. It sounds more serious, enough it seems to me for the Lord to say you sorta barely made it, so, as by fire. Yet,  Salvation is by grace and not by "works." Seems to me we haven't touched on how God looks upon our works that are burned.

Would be a good study to define them vs the acceptable good works. I'm retired six weeks now, working more hours than before, still building cabinets but now for our kids, and with less time you have me up late responding.   All your fault, VA.....
 

Think about  acceptable good works vs unacceptable works that will burn up.
May help to discern what distinguishes between the two, like motive etc, and where in the scriptures can we locate them.  Here's one I found, emphasizing the sharing of the gospel, the first priority good work. (Silver/Gold)

A study:     VERSE BY VERSE MINISTRY INTERNATIONAL

Question;   Concerning 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, if I don't do good works will everything I do burn up?

Let's begin by looking at the passage:

1 Corinthians 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
1 Corinthians 3:13 each manʼs work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each manʼs work.
1 Corinthians 3:14 If any manʼs work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any manʼs work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

In v.11 Paul says every good work we set out to accomplish must begin with the Gospel itself. The Gospel message is the foundation of every good work in the Church body. In fact it is the foundation of the Church itself. If our work doesnʼt begin with the advancement of the Gospel, itʼs useless from the start. Every good thing done on man's own intuition, for example social works, charity, various other good works, are not the mission and purpose of the church without Christ at the center and core reason for the acts of service. These acts of service are tools we use to support the mission but the mission is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. So we cannot begin our work for Christ on any foundation other than on the mission to spread the testimony of Jesus and Him crucified.  

Then Paul says we may build in one of two ways, on the foundation of Christ using valuable materials like gold, silver, and valuable jewels. Obviously, these materials are not your ordinary construction materials; they are precious and durable. Paul compares these valuable materials to the good works that please the Lord as they are valuable in building the Church body through believers, not an actual building.

On the other hand these scriptures indicate that we could build our metaphorical structure with ordinary materials like wood, hay and straw as these materials have no value long term.

Then in v.13, Paul describes that our work will be evident in a day to come, testing the quality of our work for the Lord. The day Paul is describing is judgment day, the day Christ assesses our life in service to Him. Judgement comes the day we die and face the Lord as Hebrews says:

Hebrews 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

Paul says that our work will become evident on judgment day. The word evident in Greek is phaneros, which means obvious. The quality of our work will be obvious to everyone, including us. Somehow the Lord will make it very plain what we did, whether good or bad. All the games we played and lies we told ourselves will end and in their place will be truth. The purpose of every test ultimately is to reveal truth.

Paul compares this test to a fire that burns away the worthless things and leaves behind only the sturdy, valuable things. Fire is commonly used to test the quality of metals as impurities are burned away leaving only the pure elements. In this same way our work will be evaluated on the day of judgment. 

Paul says in v.14 that if our work stands up to Christʼs scrutiny, we will receive a reward. The Lord is a righteous judge and He is also a good Father Who knows how to give good gifts. We can expect that our reward will exceed anything we might have gained for ourselves here on earth.

But for some, that judgment will not go well.

Paul says in v.15 that if a man comes into that moment without a proper legacy of service to Christ, then all that he brings will be burned up. While he may have been a Christian all his life, attended church a Sunday here or there, prayed when he thought about it, threw a few bucks in the collection plate from time to time but not much else concerning a walk with Christ or service to Christ. Whatever he did, the test of his life reveals a wasted opportunity. As mentioned, the fire of Christʼs judgment consumes everything the man accomplished.

He may have built a Fortune 500 company, had a fortune in the bank, he may be beloved by millions and done many great things…but they werenʼt things that mattered to Christ and the Kingdom.

Paul says that man fails his test…so what happens to him?

At the end of v.15 Paul says the manʼs entrance into the Kingdom isnʼt at risk! Salvation is not on the line, praise God! Paul says he is saved, but he comes through like someone walking through a fire. 

We should all be working today for a better outcome on that future day as we want to receive a good result. This test comes but once, and we have only one lifetime to prepare and those results last 1,000 years.

Our rewards (or lack thereof) will be ours to enjoy for the thousand year Kingdom.

 

I agree with your assesment/interpretation of the scriptures above. Thank you for that.

Since we are not talking about Salvation being determined at the Bema Seat, What do you make of 2Cor 5:10 and 11? 

10 says For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

This is directly followed by verse 11 which says Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

I suppose that the Terror of the Lord can happen when we are standing before the Bema Seat having all our works (or lack of works) evaluated by the King?

Just one of the scriptures on this subject that I ponder . . . . 

[steve morrow]

 

BURNED  UP ??? 

 

JEREMIAH 5:14  wherefore thus saith   -- THE  LORD -- because you speak this word  behold --- I will make  MY  words in thy mouth fire  ---  and this people wood  ---  and it shall devour them ---

 

JEREMIAH 23:29  is not  MY  word like a fire  ---  SAITH  THE  LORD  ---  and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces 

 

JOHN 12:48   he that rejecteth  ME  and --- RECEIVETH  NOT  --MY  WORDS--  HATH  ONE  THAT  JUDGETH  HIM   --- THE  WORD  --** THE  WORD  THAT  --*** I  HAVE  SPOKEN***--  THE  SAME  SHALL  JUDGE  HIM  IN  THE  LAST  DAY 

 

--12:49--  for I have not spoken of myself but  THE  FATHER  which sent  ME  ---  HE  GAVE  ME  A  COMMANDMENT  WHAT  I  SHOULD  SAY  AND  WHAT  I  SHOULD  SPEAK---

--6:65--  AND  HE  SAID  ---  therefore said I unto you that no man can come unto  ME  except it were given unto him  --- OF  MY  FATHER ---

--6:66-- from that time many of  HIS  disciples went back and walked no more with  HIM 

--6:67-- then said  JESUS  unto the twelve ---  will you also go away ---

--6:68-- then simon peter answered  HIM  LORD  to  --whom--  shall we go  ---  thou hast the words of eternal life ---

--6:69-- and we believe and ---ARE  SURE--- that thou art that ---  CHRIST ---  THE  SON  OF  THE  LIVING  GOD ---

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST 

 

 

[Sower]

5 hours ago, Ray12614 said:

I agree with your assesment/interpretation of the scriptures above. Thank you for that.

Since we are not talking about Salvation being determined at the Bema Seat, What do you make of 2Cor 5:10 and 11? 

10 says For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done, whether it be good or bad.

This is directly followed by verse 11 which says Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

I suppose that the Terror of the Lord can happen when we are standing before the Bema Seat having all our works (or lack of works) evaluated by the King?

Just one of the scriptures on this subject that I ponder . . . . 

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil"

I feel certain I have read this verse before but I had never saw this verse with the new understanding now that,   each one may receive what is due for what (evil) he has done"

I suppose I always had the impression all our sins were forgotten as far as the east is from the west.

                "For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
                  and I will remember their sins no more.”

Kinda shocking for me to discover that after death I will receive judgement due on bad things done. God is light, His word is true. Amen, and so be it.

Could be more to this I'm unaware, like (hoping) mercy...

Thanks Ray....

[Ray12614]

52 minutes ago, Sower said:

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil"

I feel certain I have read this verse before but I had never saw this verse with the new understanding now that,   each one may receive what is due for what (evil) he has done"

I suppose I always had the impression all our sins were forgotten as far as the east is from the west.

                "For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
                  and I will remember their sins no more.”

Kinda shocking for me to discover that after death I will receive judgement due on bad things done. God is light, His word is true. Amen, and so be it.

Could be more to this I'm unaware, like (hoping) mercy...

Thanks Ray....

I agree mercy is evident at the Bema seat of Christ. Rewards given or withheld, approved or disqualified for works done or left undone. Works done with Right attitudes or wrong attitudes. 
 

I will keep hoping for mercy trusting  His judgment will be fair and true. I am probably not saying this right. 
 

[Vine Abider]

14 hours ago, Sower said:

He may have built a Fortune 500 company, had a fortune in the bank, he may be beloved by millions and done many great things…but they werenʼt things that mattered to Christ and the Kingdom.

Paul says that man fails his test…so what happens to him?

At the end of v.15 Paul says the manʼs entrance into the Kingdom isnʼt at risk! Salvation is not on the line, praise God! Paul says he is saved, but he comes through like someone walking through a fire. 

We should all be working today for a better outcome on that future day as we want to receive a good result. This test comes but once, and we have only one lifetime to prepare and those results last 1,000 years.

Our rewards (or lack thereof) will be ours to enjoy for the thousand year Kingdom.

 

I was just talking with a brother about this, after this morning's breakfast gathering.  We were commenting that there are extreme thoughts in both directions, about what the Bema Seat could result in for a believer.  One extreme thought is that if none of their works survive, thy will receive 1,000 years outside the kingdom (outer darkness/weeping and teeth gnashing).  The other extreme is that if all this one's works are burned up, they just get burned up, yet that person receives no other consequence.

I suspect the reality is somewhere in between . . .

6 hours ago, Ray12614 said:

I agree with your assesment/interpretation of the scriptures above. Thank you for that.

Since we are not talking about Salvation being determined at the Bema Seat, What do you make of 2Cor 5:10 and 11? 

10 says For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

This is directly followed by verse 11 which says Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

I suppose that the Terror of the Lord can happen when we are standing before the Bema Seat having all our works (or lack of works) evaluated by the King?

Just one of the scriptures on this subject that I ponder . . . . 

I suspect the "terror of the Lord" is standing before one who will actually judge ALL our works - that is really serious!  No one else in this life does that as a totality of our entire life, and He will see all of it and judge 100% righteously.  That thought can be pretty terrifying! 

1 hour ago, Sower said:

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil"

I feel certain I have read this verse before but I had never saw this verse with the new understanding now that,   each one may receive what is due for what (evil) he has done"

I suppose I always had the impression all our sins were forgotten as far as the east is from the west.

                "For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
                  and I will remember their sins no more.”

Kinda shocking for me to discover that after death I will receive judgement due on bad things done. God is light, His word is true. Amen, and so be it.

Could be more to this I'm unaware, like (hoping) mercy...

Thanks Ray....

The salvation work in Christ was so totally efficacious!  He paid the price for sin and thereby cleanses our vessel, so that we can then be filled with His life and become children of God!  And as His children, there is still accountability for what we do, but we never need to go back and lay that foundation again, that Christ already did. 

Our call now is to go on to maturity - grow in Christ, and do the works prepared for us since the foundation of the world.

And regarding what we might do that is "evil," I wonder too . . .  I think that perhaps the biggest evil we can do is the evil of unbelief or not trusting Him.  He called the unfaithful servant in Matthew 25 "slothful & wicked" right?  Yet, Christ has paid the price for sin, so while the actions of this unfaithful one could be called sinful, it seems to be more regarding that there was no profit (for the kingdom) with this one.

31 minutes ago, Ray12614 said:

I agree mercy is evident at the Bema seat of Christ. Rewards given or withheld, approved or disqualified for works done or left undone. Works done with Right attitudes or wrong attitudes. 
 

I will keep hoping for mercy trusting  His judgment will be fair and true. I am probably not saying this right. 
 

I look at this as a building.  Christ said he is building His church, and Ephesians 2:22 tells us we are being built together as a habitation of God in Spirit.  Then the passage in 1st Corinthians 3 talks about the materials we are building with.  What is profitable to the building occurs when we are seeking the building's Architect and Maker and get fresh directions* from Him about what should be constructed.  If not, we may add an entire grass hut addition to it, that will just need to be burnt down . . .

* I say "fresh directions" meaning not going off and doing something just because we think it's in the bible, but having a moment by moment leading from Him regarding what should be built and how