Are the Tribulation Saints and Old Testament Saints Raptured After they are Resurrected at the Second coming?

[transmogrified]

4 minutes ago, The Light said:

In 1 Thes 4 we see the dead in Christ rising first. THEN the alive that remain are caught up. This cannot happen at the twinkling of an eye at the last trump.

Therefore, all are not changed at the last trump.

The change is not the same as ascending up to heaven...all are changed means all, both living and the dead are given immortal bodies...indeed all are changed at the exact same time, at the last trump...however the dead, who have just been given immortal bodies at the same time the living did, rise up, or ascend up to heaven BEFORE the living do...the dead ascend up to heaven and then descend down from heaven and the living then go up to meet them in the air...so the dead ascend up before the living, but all are changed at the exact same time..

 

7 minutes ago, The Light said:

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

'Many' is used in the same way Jesus died for the sins of many...not meaning that he died for quite a few of us, but not all, but rather that the quantity of people he died for is great..as one translation puts it, 'multitudes of those sleeping in the dust of the earth shall awake...' meaning the quantity of people who will awake will be large..

Just as Jesus said ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...it is the same type of usage..

In one place it says Jesus died for the sins of many, and in other places it states he died for all...

Paul is saying all the believers will be changed at the last trump...as he said elsewhere, Christ was the first that should rise, or in other words, Christ was the firstfruits, but then afterward, THEY THAT ARE CHRISTS AT HIS COMING...'In other words ALL those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at his coming...meaning, again, all the saints that belong to Christ, or in other words all the saints, will be resurrected, or changed at the second coming, which is to say, at the 7th trump, which is to say, at the last trump, for that is when Christ comes and sets up his kingdom on earth...there are no saints that are not changed at the last trump.

 

 

[The Light]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

The change is not the same as ascending up to heaven...all are changed means all, both living and the dead are given immortal bodies...indeed all are changed at the exact same time, at the last trump...

Actually, the dead in Christ rise first.........at the Trump of God or voice of God, not when the angel sounds the 7th trumpet.

Additionally, the Last Trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets and also has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet blown by an angel.

Further, the Last Trump will sound at the 6th seal and will be the gathering from heaven and earth, BEFORE the 7th seal is opened containing the trumpets of wrath.

 

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

 

however the dead, who have just been given immortal bodies at the same time the living did, rise up, or ascend up to heaven BEFORE the living do...the dead ascend up to heaven and then descend down from heaven and the living then go up to meet them in the air...so the dead ascend up before the living, but all are changed at the exact same time..

That seems strange that the living would have an immortal body and just hang around on the earth when the dead in Christ rise up and go to heaven.

Let's get to what's really happening. From 1 Thes 4 we can tell that the dead in Christ rise first. The alive will not prevent them which are asleep. Those which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

1 Thessalonians 4

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The dead in Christ rise first. This will likely happen during Passover. This is the spring barley harvest. The Lord will take them to heaven. When the Lord returns for the alive that remain, He will bring the dead in Christ with Him. The rapture is the summer wheat harvest, which is the alive Church, and will likely happen on the true Pentecost, the Feast of New Wine. The barley and wheat make up the grain harvest. This takes place before the seals are opened.

During the 70th week of Daniel the Lord will turn His attention to Israel as the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. At the Last Trump on the Feast of Trumpets the dead and alive will changed in the twinkling of an eye. This happens at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation of those days. This is the fall fruit harvest. As we saw in Daniel 12 the people of Daniel shall be delivered.................AND THE PEOPLE OF DANIEL SHALL BE RAISED. 

Daniel 12

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

 

'Many' is used in the same way Jesus died for the sins of many...not meaning that he died for quite a few of us, but not all, but rather that the quantity of people he died for is great..as one translation puts it, 'multitudes of those sleeping in the dust of the earth shall awake...' meaning the quantity of people who will awake will be large..

Just as Jesus said ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...it is the same type of usage..

In one place it says Jesus died for the sins of many, and in other places it states he died for all...

As was shown above, the reason that MANY of them that sleep in the ground are raised is because the people of Daniel are raised. There are plenty of people that will not be raised until the 7th trumpet blown by an angel, but it will not be the people of Daniel.

Additionally, the Church is already raised before the seals are opened which is why there are 24 elders with crowns in Rev 4 and kings and priest before the throne in Revelation 5

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

 

Paul is saying all the believers will be changed at the last trump...as he said elsewhere, Christ was the first that should rise, or in other words, Christ was the firstfruits, but then afterward, THEY THAT ARE CHRISTS AT HIS COMING...'In other words ALL those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at his coming...meaning, again, all the saints that belong to Christ, or in other words all the saints, will be resurrected, or changed at the second coming, which is to say, at the 7th trump, which is to say, at the last trump, for that is when Christ comes and sets up his kingdom on earth...there are no saints that are not changed at the last trump.

 

 

The second coming does not occur at the 7th trumpet. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation.

The second advent occurs at the 7th trumpet.

 

So first fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming.

Hebrews 9

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Half the Church is looking for the return of the Messiah. The other half does not think He comes until after the man of sin is revealed.

We already have first fruits of barley and wheat. When the Lord returns before the seals are opened, they who are Christs at His coming and are looking for Him will be raptured.....pre trib.

Then there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes as God keep His promise to His Chosen. Then they that are Christs at His coming will be raptured at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation. All eyes will see the coming of the Lord as He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. This is the fruit harvest.

Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. The Lord will return with the armies of heaven for Armageddon and then to set up His kingdom at the 7th trumpet.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Sorry I meant Rev 21:9-14 “ I will show you the bride, The lambs wife” 

 

I don’t know what you mean here… 

What I was meaning is that the word “hagios” is never translated “angels” but when hagios is used without a noun it is translated “saints.” 
 

In a context were there is a noun such as “angel” or “covenant” or “place” it then is used to identify that angel, or covenant or place as being  HOLY… but when used without a noun it is translated “saints”.

This is why the KJV translated it saints because there was no “ones” in the Greek, as the translators themselves added the word “ones” into the text which then turned the word hagios back into describing what the “ones” were, rather than leaving it as it was which would mean they were saints and not angels … 

I'm not going to let my understanding hinge on it but in Jude the noun is myriads.

So it's 'holy myriads' and does not prove it is the elect saints, of course this by itself also doesn't prove it isn't the elects saints.

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Strongs  defines the Hebrew word for saints as including an angel but this is an error as I looked through every reference to the word “quados” and it is never translated angel.

Strong's Definitions: קָדוֹשׁ qâdôwsh,kaw-doshe'; or קָדֹשׁ qâdôsh; from H6942; sacred (ceremonially or morally); (as noun) God (by eminence), an angel, a saint, a sanctuary:—holy (One), saint.

psalms 50:5

Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

 

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

These are redeemed believers that are gathered to him.. not angels.. and they come down from heaven because that is where Jesus is.. He brings those that sleep in Jesus WITH HIM… Those that sleep in Jesus are not angels..they are resurrected saints and they are gathered to Jesus - This is the gathering Paul is talking about when he said “our gathering together unto him”..

Then you are going to need a massive and comprehensive resurrection and gathering up before Jesus arrives. The resurrection and gathering up of the saints occurs when Jesus arrives, as is well documented in the Gospels of Matt and Mark and in the Epistles.

How is it that the elect saints can be returning with Jesus when they aren't even resurrected, gathered up, then those alive and remaining are gathered up, until the arrival of Jesus?

Returning elect saints with Jesus just doesn't work according to the solid timeline provided in Matt, Mark, and Luke.

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

They come down with Jesus meaning they FOLLOWED him, meaning he went BEFORE them, meaning THEY WERE BEHIND HIM…

But they aren't even resurrected until Jesus breaks through the sky with His assembled armies.

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The bride descended out of heaven meaning she was in heaven.. there was a voice of MUCH PEOPLE (not angels) in heaven.. (Rev.19:1) The only way these people got up there was they were caught up there.. I.e. raptured, I.e. ascended up off the ground up into heaven just like the two witnesses ascended up to heaven in a cloud..

So, pretrib, 7 years prior to Jesus arrival?

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Yes there is a resurrection in which all are changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump...The change to both the living and the dead happens at the same time...i.e. the dead are resurrected and changed into immortal bodies at the same time the living are changed into immortal bodies...

<thumbs up!>

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

However the change into immortal bodies is not the same as ascending up to heaven...just like the two witnesses...they were FIRST resurrected and stood upon their feet...at this time they received their immortal bodies, however they were still standing on the ground until they heard the voice saying come up hither, and it was THEN that they ascended up to heaven in a cloud.

1 Cor 15:23 says that "those who belong to Him" will all be resurrected "when He comes".  So the return to physical life of the 2W is not a glorified immortal resurrection, just as all the raising to life examples in the OT and NT weren't.

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Jesus was FIRST resurrected and then 40 days later he ascended up to heaven...so being glorified does not mean ascension up into heaven, however resurrection into glorified bodies IS NOT the end of the story...the dead in Christ RISE first (into heaven) ...remember, both groups had already been changed into immortal bodies, but neither group, dead or living, had yet ascended up..so that is why it says the dead in Christ RISE first, meaning both groups, dead and living, do rise up to heaven, but the dead in Christ rise first, then we which are alive and remain are CAUGHT up together with them to meet the Lord IN THE AIR...So the dead go up to heaven and then Jesus brings THOSE THAT SLEEP WITH HIM, as they are DESCENDING down to the earth...

Since 1 Cor 15:23 is clear about when the resurrection of all believers will occur, no one is taken to heaven.  Because Jesus is returning to earth at the Second Advent,for the wedding supper, Bema and the MK.

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The only way they can be descending down from heaven with Jesus is that they had to first be caught up there into heaven, so IT IS NOT JUST BEING RESURRECTED, that he is talking about..the same Bible that says we will be resurrected ALSO says the living believers will be CAUGHT UP together with them, to  meet the Lord  in the air.

All the ones who accompany Jesus to earth are those who have already died and their souls are in heaven.  Rev 19 is about the believers in heaven preparing for the wedding supper.

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The same word for the man child being caught up to God and his throne which is Jesus ascending up into heaven is the same word 'caught up' where it says we will be caught up...the much people in heaven in Rev. 19:1 had to be caught up, or ascend up there in order to get there...it is completely false to say there will be no rapture, or not ascension, or no catching up  for any believer...ABSOLUTELY FALSE...

1 Thess 4 says the living believers will meet the Lord in the air (clouds) with those who came with Him.  

v.17 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Living believers will be caught up together with THEM in the clouds;  Jesus and all the believers from heaven.  And this begins Jesus' reign on earth.

[Uriah]

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Saint is not the same word for angels..."Saints" is NOT used in scripture for angels.

Saint is 'hagios' in Greek and 'qados' in Hebrew...angel is 'angelos' in Greek and 'malak' in Hebrew...they are not interchangeable...

Hagios is used to denote a person, place, or thing

to be holy, but when it used alone it means 'saint', not angel...

The Israelites had armies divided by rank but the Israelites were flesh and blood humans, not angels.

Dan 8:13- Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Deu 33:2- “The LORD came from Sinai, And dawned on them from Seir; He shone
 forth from Mount Paran, And He came with ten thousands of saints; From His right
hand Came a fiery law for them.

 

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

On 8/30/2023 at 9:03 PM, transmogrified said:

The Issue here is scripture specifically states that when the Lord comes All his saints will be with him..Zech. 14: 5 '...and the Lord my God shall come and all the saints with thee,' also Paul says in 1 Thess. 3:13 that when he comes it will be with all his saints.

  First is the word 'church' allegedly ONLY refers to those who live and die from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture, then how would it be that both Zech. and Paul are saying all his SAINTS are coming with him, rather than saying when he comes, all the 'church' will be with him?

   And remember he is saying ALL his saints, so if the 'church' is sometimes referred to as saints, and then also those who die during the tribulation are called saints then both Zech. and Paul are not making these types of distinctions.

   Although Pre Trib states that Old Testament Saints and Tribulation saints will be resurrected, this does not also mean raptured, as resurrection and being caught up are two different things. This can be seen in the two prophets...they are first resurrected and then stand on their feet...after this has happened they then hear a voice calling them up to heaven...hence they were first resurrected then after that they were raptured.

    If the Old Testament Saints and the Tribulation are then only resurrected and yet not raptured that means they would not be among the saints who descend from heaven...hence Jesus would not be returning with ALL his saints, but only with PART of his saints.

    It is stated that 1 Thess. 4 is when Christ comes FOR his church, meaning the dead and the living are caught up to heaven...the dead did not get up there just because they were just resurrected...the only way they got up was that they were first resurrected and then caught up. To sum it up, they can't COME DOWN with Jesus if they weren't first UP THERE and they couldn't get UP THERE if they had not been caught up...so if the trib saints and old testament saints are just resurrected but not caught up, that means they would not be UP there, hence they could not COME DOWN here when Jesus comes. Is there one rapture for the 'church' to get up there, and then another one for the trib saints to get up there, or how did they get up there?

There is only 1 rapture. So at the rapture, all the believers in history will receive their glorified bodies. They remain in Heaven during the Tribulation. When Jesus returns, those in Heaven return with him. Believers on earth do not receive glorified bodies yet and enter the millennium redeemed yet still fallen as we are now. At the end of the millennium, believers who lived in their fallen states for the millennium, will then be glorified, and the final resurrection of the unsaved and GWT happens.

[The Light]

5 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

There is only 1 rapture.

 

 

There are two raptures. One before the seals are opened and one at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation and before the wrath of God.

[FJK]

2 minutes ago, The Light said:

There are two raptures. One before the seals are opened and one at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation and before the wrath of God.

Time lines are a bit obscure and difficult to decipher in Revelation, what specific references are you using to determine this?

[farouk]

16 minutes ago, FJK said:

Time lines are a bit obscure and difficult to decipher in Revelation, what specific references are you using to determine this?

@FJK I think the term 'rapture' refers to the coming of the Lord for His church, specifically, in any case (John 14; 1 Cor. 11.; 1 Thess. 4).

[The Light]

20 minutes ago, FJK said:

Time lines are a bit obscure and difficult to decipher in Revelation, what specific references are you using to determine this?

Timeline for the first rapture is the 24 elders WITH CROWNS in Revelation 4. The crowns tell you Jesus HAS come. There are also kings and priests in heaven before the throne in Rev 5.

Then there is the rapture at the 6th seal. It is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Most people think that the coming of the Lord in Matthew 24 occurs at the 7th trumpet. We can tell that is in error by the following verses.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. This is the second rapture.