The Problem With Evolution Part 2- Animals

[RV_Wizard]

On 1/1/2024 at 12:04 PM, FreeGrace said:

God spoke the entire universe into existence.  It didn't take 6 days.  What did take 6 days was the restoration.

More non-Scriptural falsehoods.

Genesis 1: 

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

The sun, moon and stars were created on day four, not day one.  Once more, your claim is not supported by the Scriptures.  Any more verses you want to make up?

[FreeGrace]

14 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said: 

God spoke the entire universe into existence.  It didn't take 6 days.  What did take 6 days was the restoration.

More non-Scriptural falsehoods.

You can call it whatever you want.  I believe what Moses wrote, unlike yourself.

Psa 33:6 and 9 don't allow for 6 days.

14 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Genesis 1: 

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

The sun, moon and stars were created on day four, not day one.  Once more, your claim is not supported by the Scriptures.  Any more verses you want to make up?

Sure, God did create things during the restoration.  Too bad you can't or won't accept what Moses wrote in v.2, which proves there WAS a time gap, of which we know nothing because God didn't give any details, other than how the earth ended up.

Your thinking is highly unscholarly.  The ONLY WAY to know what Hebrew words mean is to see how they are used in other passages, which I have done.  The Hebrew words "tohu wabohu" describe the destruction of the land in the 2 passages where there is enough context to know that.

Even the scholars who translated the OT Hebrew into the Koine (common) Greek language around 300 BC knew enough to realize that there was a clear contrast between v.1 and 2, while all English translators failed to realize that.  

But, no wonder.  Koine Greek has been a dead language for many centuries.  So it's much more difficult to understand for that reason.  But it was a living language when the Septuigant was written.

Anyway, there IS a contrast between v.1 and 2.  And clearly Moses wrote that the earth BECAME a wasteland.  Proof enough for me to accept a very old earth.

I don't care the number of years old.  That isn't even relevant.  And my view totally rejects all forms of evolution as well.  

[RV_Wizard]

On 1/5/2024 at 10:09 AM, FreeGrace said:

And clearly Moses wrote that the earth BECAME a wasteland.  

Nope.

Any cataclysm that would leave the earth "without form and void" (or "a shapeless chaotic mass" as The Living Bible expresses it), with "darkness on the face of the deep" everywhere, would require a worldwide nuclear or volcanic explosion that would effectively disintegrate the whole crust of the earth. All pre-cataclysm mountains would be blown into the sea and billions of tons of rocks and dust blown into the atmosphere, leaving the earth covered with "the deep" everywhere and "darkness" covering the deep everywhere.

Such a cataclysm would disintegrate any previously deposited sedimentary deposits with their fossils and thus obliterate all evidence of any previous "geological ages." Thus the gap theory, which is supposed to accommodate the geological ages, requires a cataclysm which would destroy all evidence for the geological ages.

The gap theory is also unsound theologically. The God of Creation is an omnipotent and omniscient God, and is also a God of grace, mercy, and love. The very concept of the geological ages, on the other hand, implies a wasteful and cruel "god," and therefore probably no god at all. 

In fact, there are few, if any, professionally trained geologists and astronomers.... who accept the gap theory. 

source

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said: 

And clearly Moses wrote that the earth BECAME a wasteland.  

Nope.

Yep.  And I proved it by Jer 4:23 and isa 34:11.  It's not my problem that you refuse to be objective about the meaning of words and what they describe.

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Any cataclysm that would leave the earth "without form and void" (or "a shapeless chaotic mass" as The Living Bible expresses it), with "darkness on the face of the deep" everywhere, would require a worldwide nuclear or volcanic explosion that would effectively disintegrate the whole crust of the earth. All pre-cataclysm mountains would be blown into the sea and billions of tons of rocks and dust blown into the atmosphere, leaving the earth covered with "the deep" everywhere and "darkness" covering the deep everywhere.

I'm done with any ridiculous talk about any object being formless.  I've been over that many times and you STILL haven't shown an object that is formless.

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The gap theory is also unsound theologically.

All theories are unsound theologically.  But facts are facts, not theories.

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The God of Creation is an omnipotent and omniscient God, and is also a God of grace, mercy, and love. The very concept of the geological ages, on the other hand, implies a wasteful and cruel "god," and therefore probably no god at all. 

I've never talked of "geological ages".  I know that God created a GOOD universe, but allowed the earth to become an uninhabitable wasteland.  And then restored it for man's use.  No damage to any theology.  But yes, there IS damage to your biases.

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

In fact, there are few, if any, professionally trained geologists and astronomers.... who accept the gap theory. 

source

Again, there is no theory about biblical earth age.  Only in your mind.

[Starise]

@FreeGrace How long did it take God to create the world from Genesis v2 onward?

[RV_Wizard]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

I know that God created a GOOD universe, but allowed the earth to become an uninhabitable wasteland.  And then restored it for man's use.

What universe has no sun, no moon, no stars, no light, and no heat?  All these things were created subsequent you your so-called restoration.

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, Starise said:

@FreeGrace How long did it take God to create the world from Genesis v2 onward?

Ah, tricky question!   From Genesis 1:2 on, the earth had already become an ininhabited wasteland, so all of the restoration was done in 6 days.

And during the restoration, God did create a number of things.  But original creation took only as long as it took God to SPEAK everything into existence, out of nothing, or ex nihilo.  Psa 33:6, 9

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  FreeGrace said: 

I know that God created a GOOD universe, but allowed the earth to become an uninhabitable wasteland.  And then restored it for man's use.

What universe has no sun, no moon, no stars, no light, and no heat?

All that is the condition when God BEGAN to restore the wasteland of earth.

As to you question, it is just irrelevant.  Doesn't matter.  There is only 1 universe, which is clear from v.1.  It is obvious from other verses that more than the earth was effected by whatever wasted the earth.  The universe GROANS in anticipation.

Romans 8 -

19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.

20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope

21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

I don't know about you, but words mean things.  And these verses clearly reveal that creation itself was effected by more than what Adam and the woman did.  In fact, it should be clear that the entire creation was effected when the earth BECAME an uninhabited wasteland.

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  All these things were created subsequent you your so-called restoration.

It's not mine.  It's God's.  He is the Restorer.  I already shared Heb 11:3 with you, that proves that God restored the earth.  I guess you just aren't interested.

[RV_Wizard]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

All that is the condition when God BEGAN to restore the wasteland of earth.

As to you question, it is just irrelevant.  Doesn't matter.  There is only 1 universe, which is clear from v.1.. 

Only one universe with no sun, moon, stars, light, heat, or life.  That isn't much of a universe, now is it?  Your false beliefs were first put forward in the 1800's as a reaction to secular geologists claiming the earth is billions of years old.  It's nothing more than a compromise between truth and a lie, which ALWAYS results in a lie.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said: 

All that is the condition when God BEGAN to restore the wasteland of earth.

Only one universe with no sun, moon, stars, light, heat, or life. 

Do you not understand plain English?  Read the red words above again.  This time for comprehension, please.

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  That isn't much of a universe, now is it?

Who knows and who cares.  I never said God created a universe without sun, moon, starts, light, heat, or life.  Who don't you pay attention to what I actually say?

And I proved to you that the universe WAS effected by whatever caused the earth to become an uninhabitable wasteland (tohu wabohu) in Romans 8.

You only embarrass yourself when you miss important information that supports my views and refutes your own.

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Your false beliefs were first put forward in the 1800's as a reaction to secular geologists claiming the earth is billions of years old.

Go ahead and quote anyone who "put forward" what I believe from the 1800's.  How about naming even SEVERAL of them.   Just for scholarly effect.

iow, back up your claims with evidence.  The person who first mentioned a "gap theory" was a Scottish minister, in 1814.  Did you know that?  And I have NO idea what he said, if any, about WHAT may have caused the earth to become an uninhabitable wasteland.  If he pointed out what "tohu wabohu" means in Jer 4:23 and isa 34:11, then he was on the RIGHT TRACK, all right.

I am putting forth FACTS.  All you have are biased opinions.

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  It's nothing more than a compromise between truth and a lie, which ALWAYS results in a lie.

None of what you opine holds up under the microscope of evidence.  Because you don't have any. 

Oh, just an English translation.  And quite faulty at that.

You STILL haven't proven that objects that can be seen can be "formless".