Dual Topic: Heaven - Satan

[Vine Abider]

2 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Excellent idea, I will tag both @AdHoc and @Marilyn C to see if they are interested in jumping into the fray. 

Marilyn's already privy to this thread . . . that's why I just suggested AdHoc.  (now where's my popcorn . . .)

[Marilyn C]

On 9/7/2023 at 8:57 AM, Marilyn C said:

 

Hi Dennis,

Yes, I`m interested in this discussion which is quite relevant to where we believe we will go and have our eternal inheritance. Also, as these details lead to the preeminence of Christ, they are very worthwhile topics.

First Topic.

We know from God`s word that there are three `realms` of heaven -

1.     The atmosphere over the earth where the birds fly and rain etc. (James 5: 18)

2.     The middle heavens of the universe, planets, sun etc. (Gen. 1: 16 & 17)

3.     The third heaven, the angels, etc (2 Cor. 12: 2)

The Kingdom (rulership) of God includes all realms as God made them all and never gave them away. (Col. 1: 16) He rules overall. Since sin entered (Lucifer and later man) God has been working to put down all rebellion in each realm in His timing.

The third heaven is not polluted as Lucifer was cast out. However, the position of rulership there, (Lucifer was the King priest) has not yet been fulfilled. (Ez. 28: 16)

Lucifer, now named Satan, (accuser) is now in the Universal realm, (principalities and powers rulership position.  Eph. 2: 2   6: 12) and that is certainly polluted. (Job 15: 15)

And the earth and its atmosphere are polluted and the rulership on the earth is against God and will be dealt with. (Ps. 2: 1 – 5)

 

Second Topic.

When Satan came before God he certainly did not enter the throne room. Coming before God is a term that means Satan had to stop and be accountable to God. Remember God speaks to everyone wherever they are. We do not have to fly to heaven to talk to God.

 

regards, Marilyn.

 

 

@Dennis1209 Seems you missed my post?

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Correct or not, I think the temples here on Earth are patterns of the heavenly temple, which have the courts, holy of holies, etc. So much detail, instruction, and measurement are provided on how they will be built, furnished, and utilized.

Revelation 16:17 (KJV) And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. [emphasis mine]

 

The pattern of the Tabernacle & Temple are of the Lord Himself and His ministry as High Priest, (a study in itself). The `temple in heaven,` is the Lord Himself. It is through Him that we worship God the Father and Jesus Himself. It is only on earth that the physical Tabernacle and Temple was needed to enable man to approach Holy God.

Thus `there came a great voice `from Jesus the Mediator of the new Covenant,` from the throne, saying, "It is done. " (Rev. 16: 17)

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

 

Not to be confused with the third heaven and our eternal abode: Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Like the Earth, cosmos, and everything in it, is the 3^rd heaven a part of creation? Was it created as the abode of God and the heavenly host?

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. [emphasis mine]

Again, is the universe and third heaven part of the whole creation? I propose, most likely.

 

Actually the `Temple in heaven ` (Jesus) is in the third heaven. Remember that the New Jerusalem comes down out of (3rd) heaven.

Hope the diagrams help.

 

[Vine Abider]

And let me throw this into the mix: The three parts of the tabernacle and temple do seem to correspond to the three parts of man.  That is the body being the outer court; the soul being the inner court; and the spirit being the Holy of Holies (where God resides).

As 1 Cor 6:19 says, "Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit" and just prior in verse 17 it says, "He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him."  This places the specific residence of the HS in our innermost being, our spirit.

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

 

To this day, Satan still has access to heaven and presents himself before the Lord to accuse us. I submit the devil and his minions do not present themselves on Earth or the 2^nd heaven, but where God physically is in heaven.

How did one man’s sin escape planet Earth and contaminate all creation? If Satan, sin himself, is facing God in heaven, lying, deceiving, and accusing, does that not also contaminate heaven?

 

Satan does not go into the Holy Presence of God but is required to listen to God as God talks to Satan where Satan is in the lower heavens. We do not fly to God`s throne but can come before Him and talk with Him while we are on earth. Remember God is omnipresent, (everywhere present by His Holy spirit.)

Lucifer/Satan was cast out of God`s Holy presence, (symbol - mountain Ex. 28: 16). He usurped the rulership position in the lower heavens (universe) called `Principalities and Powers. ` God created those rulership positions -

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or PRINCIPALITIES OR POWERS. All things were created through Him and for Him. ` (Col. 1: 16)

`the prince of the power of the air...` (Eph. 2: 2)

`For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against principalities , against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the (lower) heavenly places.` (Eph. 6: 12)

If you went into space Satan and his minions could still influence you there. However, in the middle of the tribulation they will be cast further down to the earth and just limited to there. Then, when the Lord deals with them they will go further down till finally the lake of fire. Always, down, down down.

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

 

To me, heaven is where Jesus physically is and rules and reigns, where there is no need for solar or artificial light because His glory shines so brightly. We may spend about seven years in heaven during the Tribulation, but the 3^rd heaven will not be our eternal home.

As always, this is my current view and understanding, which may be incorrect.

Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

Verse 17 explains that people must not shy away from interaction with their peers since it is an education in itself. The “sharpening” can occur in any area in which people are engaged, be it business, intellectual, or physical competition.^[3]

 

---

 

Have you scriptures to say that the Body of Christ moves from the third heaven, the Lord`s seat of power and authority and comes back to earth?

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

 

As far as where our eternal home is, I agree that it is on the earth.  Everything with man is centered on the earth, from what I can see in scripture, and so far, I haven't seen anything to sway me of that notion.

Where will God be?  From what I see in the last two chapters of Revelation, it seems God's intention is to dwell with man, and man is on the earth ("The earth He has given to the children of men" Psalm 115:16)

 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.  ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. 

I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. (Rev 21:2-4 & 22)

 The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. They will see his face  (Rev 22:3-4)

And I have to throw in this one from brother Paul:  You also are being built together for a habitation of God in Spirit  (Eph 2:22

Hi VA,

Yes, the children of men are given dominion of the earth.

`And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its (NJ) light, and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory and honour into it. ` (Rev. 21: 24)

However, when we are IN CHRIST we are not OF (earthly) MEN anymore but of the spirit man - Jesus Christ.

`The first man was of the earth, made of dust, the second man is the LORD FROM HEAVEN.

As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and is the HEAVENLY MAN, so also are THOSE WHO ARE HEAVENLY.

And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the HEAVENLY MAN. ` (1 Cor. 15: 47 - 49)

[Dennis1209]

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Have you scriptures to say that the Body of Christ moves from the third heaven, the Lord`s seat of power and authority and comes back to earth?

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Will we Christian soldiers be sitting idly by at the Lord’s second coming?  I believe Jesus is bringing us back with Him to earth for the final battle. And forever we will be with the Lord, here on earth.

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

I can only interpret the above description as the redeemed of all time.

John 14:2 (KJV) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

I believe these ‘many mansions’ is the new Jerusalem, that comes down from heaven to earth, and will be occupied by the saints. Represented by the twelve gates (Israel, Prophets – OT) and the twelve foundations (Gospel, Apostles – NT).

[Dennis1209]

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Satan does not go into the Holy Presence of God but is required to listen to God as God talks to Satan where Satan is in the lower heavens. We do not fly to God`s throne but can come before Him and talk with Him while we are on earth. Remember God is omnipresent, (everywhere present by His Holy spirit.)

I cannot reason that thought in my feeble little mind.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Satan and his minions are spirits, evil spirits. The following is how I understand it, and this is not to say I have a correct view, hence our discussions, questioning, studying, and learning.

I believe the only prayer and communication of a lost and dying soul the Lord will hear first is asking for Salvation and eternal life. After Salvation and a right standing before the Lord, our spirit in truth connects with the indwelling Holy Spirit, and we can boldly approach the throne of God in prayer.

How does Satan communicate with God and accuse the brethren day and night? Satan is not omni anything and can only be in one place at a time. Satan’s spirit cannot connect with the Holy Spirit. Does the Lord leave the 3^rd heaven and His throne to listen to the father of lies and his accusations constantly? Satan was physically present tempting Jesus, he was physically present contending for the body of Moses, and so forth. 

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

When I present myself to someone, it seems that I go to where they are, not vice versa, and maybe bring a buddy along. When I did that, before I repented, I brought along a couple of cases of beer (spirits) with my sinful nature and used it.

I still maintain Satan has physical access to God in heaven.

I totally agree with the remainder of your post. Satan usurped Adam’s dominion and authority and presently is the god of this planet. Like heaven's organization and spiritual hierarchy, Satan commands his generals, captains, lieutenants, and soldiers (demons), a.k.a. principalities, princes, and powers of the air.

As with the princes of Persia and Greece, I think there are evil princes behind the scenes in every government and nation influencing world affairs and events. Unwilling puppets unknowingly being manipulated by the Lord for His plans and purposes.

1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.