12 Reasons I Know that I am Eternally Secure (I am a Child of God)!

[Vine Abider]

13 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

It is in the majority text which is the accurate text that was used most often until the great falling away started gaining steam and all these new translations started coming out... that use the minority text that contains all the errors. (Gnosticism)

It says the same thing if you keep reading in Romans 8...

Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

*This is referring to the Law of Christ that believers live under today which is the Lord's moral law that's always been in effect that followers of antinomianism try to explain away (see Galatians 6:2, 1 Corinthians 9:21, James 2:12, James 1:25)

Romans 8:5
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Romans 8:6,7
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Romans 8:13,14
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 13:14
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Then there is...

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9,10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 1:28-32
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Romans 6:1,2
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth

Galatians 6:8  
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption

All these verses indicate condemnation and corruption for anyone walking after the flesh which is living in sin.

Do you claim all these are not in the original text?

That would be another example of the OSAS crowd trying to explain away portions of scripture that does not fit their eiegesis and gnosticism

 

I consulted another brother on this, who has been steeped in studying these kinds of details for decades.  Here is how he responded:

Well I am looking in my majority text and the minority text.  And I am finding in it that text - called majority text because there are more and many fragments found, however, it doesn't go back into history as the minority text does, (called so because there are fewer fragments, however they do go further back toward the first century).  I think the majority only goes back as far as the 3rd or fourth century.  where the minority goes back to the 2dnd and third centuries.

I think I am unable to support that person's claim.  The majority texts are in the KJV and only a couple more.  The newest translations come from the minority text. 

I am not sure it is worth a lot of disagreement on though.

[Dennis1209]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Your thoughts are my thoughts.

I was born and bred a Roman Catholic. All boys Christian Brothers' College for me all my school-years. In boarding school it was Mass 3 to 4 times a week @ 06:30 and retreats scattered through the years. I know this thing from the inside. It is pure counterfeit. Have you ever noticed that Mystery Babylon is "bedecked" with the same materials as the Church is built with (1st Cor.3:12, Rev.18:16). But the silver is missing. The price on Jesus was 30 pieces of silver - the price of a Woman. It stands for the atoning work of Christ.

The Roman Church has no atoning work. It is one's OWN WORKS that decide. And if you are borderline the fire of Purgatory will purge your sins. Our Lord Jesus is denied to the uttermost. The greatest act in human history - Golgotha - exists only in Roman Catholic doctrine to camouflage. The Lord saved me out of this all at age 27½. What a salvation!

Correct me if my thinking is corrupt. I am almost convinced some of the book of Revelation alludes to the Vatican and RCC.

Revelation 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

·         Be they newly installed presidents or dictators, who do most seek out almost immediately to have an audience with. (The Pope)

Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5. And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

·         In history what organization tortured and martyred countless saints during the Inquisitions, Crusades, and Dark Ages? Banning personal ownership of the Word of God? Reading it in a language few understood (Latin), and interpreting what they read to suit their agenda.

Facts are pesky things, I will omit the Pope and Vatican's involvement, or lack thereof, during Nazi WW II, in knowing of the Holocaust, and their view of God's chosen people. 

Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

The BEAST (Antichrist) carries her for a time. There are seven (heads)of the Ten Kings (horns) left at this time and they will eventually kill her. There is much speculation of who these Kings are, I now favor heads of oligarchies for several reasons.

Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

·         Who or what else could this possibly be? Catholicism is global. Rome (and several other places) sits on seven hills. Mounce states, “There is little doubt that a first-century reader would understand this reference in any way other than as a reference to Rome, the city built upon seven hills”^[1] The enemy of the true church of Christ.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Revelation 17:10-12 is fraught with problems and speculations. If they were Roman Emperors, where do we start count, Nero? What do we do with all the minor emperors for a brief time between the majors? The same applies to the kingdoms that oppressed Israel, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and a future kingdom (Seven).

Where and how does the Seleucids of Syria, in particular, Antiochus IV. Epiphanes fit in if the above are Roman Emperors?

 

---

^[1] Johnson, Alan F. “Revelation.” The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: Hebrews through Revelation. Ed. Frank E. Gaebelein. Vol. 12. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1981. 558. Print.

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

5 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

I think I am unable to support that person's claim.  The majority texts are in the KJV and only a couple more.  The newest translations come from the minority text.

Well, I've read from some highly regarded scholars that disagree with that.  The minority text supposedly comes from Alexandia which was full of mysticism and false religions that influenced the minority text. ... the minority text is called that because it was not used often due to errors therein, until modern times as the falling away gains steam!

Alexandia is where the talmud originates from and represent the Jews departing from the Old Testament in to mysticism which is the devil's work to lead them astray and to not accept Jesus.

And it's no wonder that the newer translations are all so sin friendly... right in time for the great falling away!

Besides, I posted a bunch of other scriptures that say the same thing as the second half of Romans 8:1 so folks can't start removing scriptures they don't like

Another thing to look in to is.... the writing of the early church fathers does not support or teach OSAS as this doctrine didn't gain steam until augustine who was a gnositc that claimed his extra biblical revelation was true even though scripture doesn't support it.


 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Stan Murff

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Correct me if my thinking is corrupt. I am almost convinced some of the book of Revelation alludes to the Vatican and RCC.

Revelation 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

·         Be they newly installed presidents or dictators, who do most seek out almost immediately to have an audience with. (The Pope)

Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5. And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

·         In history what organization tortured and martyred countless saints during the Inquisitions, Crusades, and Dark Ages? Banning personal ownership of the Word of God? Reading it in a language few understood (Latin), and interpreting what they read to suit their agenda.

Facts are pesky things, I will omit the Pope and Vatican's involvement, or lack thereof, during Nazi WW II, in knowing of the Holocaust, and their view of God's chosen people. 

Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

The BEAST (Antichrist) carries her for a time. There are seven (heads)of the Ten Kings (horns) left at this time and they will eventually kill her. There is much speculation of who these Kings are, I now favor heads of oligarchies for several reasons.

Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

·         Who or what else could this possibly be? Catholicism is global. Rome (and several other places) sits on seven hills. Mounce states, “There is little doubt that a first-century reader would understand this reference in any way other than as a reference to Rome, the city built upon seven hills”^[1] The enemy of the true church of Christ.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Revelation 17:10-12 is fraught with problems and speculations. If they were Roman Emperors, where do we start count, Nero? What do we do with all the minor emperors for a brief time between the majors? The same applies to the kingdoms that oppressed Israel, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and a future kingdom (Seven).

Where and how does the Seleucids of Syria, in particular, Antiochus IV. Epiphanes fit in if the above are Roman Emperors?

 

---

^[1] Johnson, Alan F. “Revelation.” The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: Hebrews through Revelation. Ed. Frank E. Gaebelein. Vol. 12. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1981. 558. Print.

I have never met, nor heard of any two students of Revelation agree 100%. The imagery is just too colorful and varied for that. Daniel presents the same, as does Ezekiel. So all I can do is give my reasoning and understanding and, as the Lord wants it in fellowship, "the other judges" (1st Cor.14:29).

Daniel 2 presents us with an image and the explanation is given. The various body parts give world powers, starting from Babylon. Egypt ans Assyria are left out because they are past. The elements must represent the TYPE of government, for all else is different except one thing. The RELIGION was the same. In all four world powers plus the missing two, the religion of Nimrod of Babel was exercised. Because of the power that a man's religion has over him, God calls all four powers, "Mystery Babylon the Great".

I say FOUR world powers. Other students of Daniel say FIVE because (i) the clay is added as an element, and (ii) they regard the military demise of Rome as the end of that world power. I judge differently. In the image of Daniel 2, when a new power "arose", the element representing it changed completely. Not so with the iron. The iron is still present but clay was added to the iron. To me, that says that the fourth world power remained, but with additions.

I judge also that history bears this. Rome, after 300 years of killing Christians, learned the principle of the grain of wheat in John 12:24. Kill a Christian and a dozen more spring up. Satan reverted to plan "B" - the Great Tree of Matthew 13 that is obviously Gentile rule if we interpret it with Daniel 4. Satan also "leavened" the growing Kingdom, and he planted counterfeit Christians as Tares next to the the real Christians. Rome fulfills three of the four parables that our Lord gave to the crowd from the boat in Matthew 13.

That is, the NAME is Babylon because of the BELIEF or religion, but all the other indications of Revelation point to Rome. All they did in 313 AD was change soldier's armor for priests robes. Rome is the last world power and it fulfills lots of Revelation. This is also the reason why, in Daniel Chapter 2, the war between the little stone and the Kingdom of iron ends with the WHOLE EFFIGY destroyed.

So, I agree with your observations made in the above posting. Rome is alive and well on earth.

The matter of the seven kings has one simple pointer. The sixth was ruling when John wrote - that is, in 96 AD. The other five must be the same as the sixth, because the eighth is one of the seven, but more specifically, one of the five who had died. This can only be Rome. John lived to a hundred or so, and would have seen no change in world power in his lifetime. More problematic is where the Holy Spirit started counting. I have no opinion here, but a number of Caesars had very short reigns. Maybe they are not counted as having established their rule.

The matter of the seven hills bears no mystery. More than one city on earth can claim being on seven hills. But Rome is the only Capital of a world power that is situated so.

The evidence that Rome is the world power when our Lord comes back is overwhelming.

[Jaydub]

On 9/17/2023 at 12:13 PM, Marathoner said:

What's the fruit of these discussions? Nothing worthwhile nor edifying. No one changes their minds, and no one moves on from the doctrine of salvation. That's the irony of it all. We understand that our Lord saves us and rightly so; but there's so much more to discipleship than spinning in fruitless circles like children on a merry-go-round ride. 

Hoping that people will examine themselves,  Are you living in sin, then examine yourself, because not all who say Lord Lord will enter into heaven. They will say, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name cast out demon's and do many wonders in your name. Jesus tells them depart from me I never knew you.

Did these people think they were saved? They were working in the church, prophesying, praying for people casting out demons doing many wonders. Did they not think they were saved? They are pleading with Jesus, Lord Lord, but he tells them plainly I never knew you.

The 10 virgins, 5 were foolish and left out, they said Lord Lord, open the door for us, but he replies I never knew you, that's half of the church. this is a picture of half the Church not being ready, they have no oil, no holy Spirit  no light, they were no longer the light of the world, they were no longer a good witness of the good news, but they thought they were saved. They were knocking at the door crying Lord Lord

Why are there so many people who think they are saved, yet are not?

We can't be just telling people to just say this prayer and you will be saved and then a short time later someone tell them you can never loose your salvation. The Lord has shown us many Christians who think they are saved are not. So I hope we are not misleading people into a false security . There needs to be a true transformation, we need to die to sin, then we can say we are a new creation. We cant be living on the fence, we have to be all in

 

 

[Sower]

3 hours ago, Jaydub said:

Why are there so many people who think they are saved, yet are not?

This is why I never push for a decision when witnessing, but instead suggest they go home and get out their bible and re-read the Roman Road I give them and sit and read certain scriptures and simply talk to God. The decision is theirs to make before God. I also give my ph # to answer any questions. I've started last year  just giving out a men's or women's bible promise book with a copy of the Roman Road to read. Within the nice looking small book is an index they can go to that shows the specific scriptures related to a picked topic, like work or anger, marriage or salvation, etc.
 

I have had one young man send a picture of a promise book in a  text years after giving him that one years before he joined the military. Said he reads it all the time, has been helping him learn scripture, and has it with him all the time. cool...

I've had one amazon driver sitting in my drive waiting for me to come out so as to have more discussions about the word, asking questions.  The spirit was working on him. Some  are polite yet do not become interested, and some do continue to seek. During covid was a huge amount of drivers so worried about catching it and giving it to love ones they, at that time, were all ears, and my wife and I had many prayers in a circle praying over them for peace, God is in control, and to come to a saving knowledge.

Many are young parents now concerned as they have entered into the get serious responsibility years. I never know how it turns out as we get a new driver, Fed Ex UPS, USPS  Amazon and lumber drivers change routes every so many weeks.

I sow, hopefully others water, and leave the results to God. The last thing I want to do is create a misguided pew sitter wannabe, and that would be irresponsible. The thing is, I really enjoy sharing good news to total strangers. It feels right. And so easy to do.

And there are so many out there with the good soil waiting, seeking.
(even here on Worthy, watching us, seeking, right now)

         "He that winneth souls is wise"

 

[Vine Abider]

16 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

Another thing to look in to is.... the writing of the early church fathers does not support or teach OSAS as this doctrine didn't gain steam until augustine who was a gnositc that claimed his extra biblical revelation was true even though scripture doesn't support it.

Yeah, most of the early church fathers seemed to believe that there must be faith AND works, as evidence of that true faith.  And I don't disagree.  However, just because the early church folk thought one way or another, does not necessarily make it so - I've read a lot of varying opinions from among them.

You and I have and likely will go around and around on this, bro, and it can be wearying. I suspect because of each of our rather formulaic stances, we have defenses up and can't see past our own formula to see good points the other one is trying to convey.

I must say I do object to what I see as a stereotype, that everyone who believes in eternal salvation then thinks or behaves a certain way.  Saying things like "everyone in the OSAS camp" to me is not productive, in my opinion, and not true - and it does little to promote fellowship in the light, in my opinion.

A question: Hopefully through the various discourses on here, you have seen that at least most (if not all here) that believe in eternal salvation, do not think Christians once saved, should do whatever they like including living in sin.  Do you see that?

[Vine Abider]

17 hours ago, Jaydub said:

Why are there so many people who think they are saved, yet are not?

We can't be just telling people to just say this prayer and you will be saved and then a short time later someone tell them you can never loose your salvation. The Lord has shown us many Christians who think they are saved are not. So I hope we are not misleading people into a false security . There needs to be a true transformation, we need to die to sin, then we can say we are a new creation. We cant be living on the fence, we have to be all in

The teaching of OSAS probably went to far in this:  Yes, once one is born-again of God and becomes His child (with His life in them), it is impossible for them to be unborn. (this happens nowhere in God's creation)  However, if they are taught there is nothing else they need to do after initial salvation and they simply now have a so-called "ticket to heaven,*" then that is certainly not scriptural!

The born-again believer must then grow and mature in this life that they've been given. This new indwelling life of Christ will then exhibit the image of Christ upon their character and be manifested in their activities, more and more as they grow.  For this growth and manifestation to take place, the child of God must be turning to Him routinely, getting into His word, fellowship with others, etc. - in other words, be one walking in spirit (and not in flesh).

The other thing that isn't taught all that much, is the accountability for the believer for their works, once they become a child of God.  If they simply put their "ticket to heaven*" in their proverbial pocket and pay little attention to their eternal salvation, their participation in the building work God is doing on the earth will amount to the "wood, hay, stubble" stated in 1st Corinthians 3:12-15 - their works will be burned and they will suffer terrible loss, yet they themselves will be saved.

* Believers will not be up in heaven for eternity, but rather in the new dwelling place for God and man, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven  (Rev 21:2)

cc: @Stan Murff

[Marathoner]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

The teaching of OSAS probably went to far in this:  Yes, once one is born-again of God and becomes His child (with His life in them), it is impossible for them to be unborn. (this happens nowhere in God's creation)  However, if they are taught there is nothing else they need to do after initial salvation and they simply now have a so-called "ticket to heaven,*" then that is certainly not scriptural!

The born-again believer must then grow and mature in this life that they've been given. This new indwelling life of Christ will then exhibit the image of Christ upon their character and be manifested in their activities, more and more as they grow.  For this growth and manifestation to take place, the child of God must be turning to Him routinely, getting into His word, fellowship with others, etc. - in other words, be one walking in spirit (and not in flesh).

The other thing that isn't taught all that much, is the accountability for the believer for their works, once they become a child of God.  If they simply put their "ticket to heaven*" in their proverbial pocket and pay little attention to their eternal salvation, their participation in the building work God is doing on the earth will amount to the "wood, hay, stubble" stated in 1st Corinthians 3:12-15 - their works will be burned and they will suffer terrible loss, yet they themselves will be saved.

* Believers will not be up in heaven for eternity, but rather in the new dwelling place for God and man, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven  (Rev 21:2)

cc: @Stan Murff

That's the disconnect: one is not born again and left to spin their wheels (in a manner of speaking) without being taught, disciplined, and conformed to the image of Christ by the Holy Spirit. 

Here's another disconnect: the Lord will discipline, teach, and conform us to His image according to the expectations (and timetable) of men who sit in judgment over others. 

One more as it relates to the expectations of men who sit in judgment over others: the Lord will produce a sycophantic carbon copy of themselves because they have the Lord all figured out. Anyone who falls short of their expectations isn't saved, being taught by the Lord, etc.

[Vine Abider]

2 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

That's the disconnect: one is not born again and left to spin their wheels (in a manner of speaking) without being taught, disciplined, and conformed to the image of Christ by the Holy Spirit. 

Here's another disconnect: the Lord will discipline, teach, and conform us to His image according to the expectations (and timetable) of men who sit in judgment over others. 

One more as it relates to the expectations of men who sit in judgment over others: the Lord will produce a sycophantic carbon copy of themselves because they have the Lord all figured out. Anyone who falls short of their expectations isn't saved, being taught by the Lord, etc.

I was with you up until the last paragraph - can you please 'splain that a little more?