The Trickery of the Flesh

[AdHoc]

19 minutes ago, Stan Murff said:

(To the guy that hears this and is struggling with sin).... Kool!  I can go ahead and live in sin and experience a little "hurt" for doing so in purgatory, and after I atone for my own sin... I get to go to Heaven!

You may not call this purgatory, but in essence this is what it is... experiencing a little punishment for living in sin and after that get to go be in Heaven.

Scripture doesn't support anything like this.  Hurt of the second death is... going to the lake of fire.  There's no temporary place of punishment.

If we could atone of be punished for sin in a way that makes us righteous, then Jesus would not have had to go to the Cross.

Okay, I'll take purgatory on the chin without comment. But you now have to live with having negated God's prime method of getting our sanctification  - fire.

12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. (1 Pe 4:12–13)

And it negates our Lord as a Refiner.

And it negates chastisement bringing righteousness and making us "partakers of His holiness." (Heb.12)

[Vine Abider]

3 minutes ago, Stan Murff said:

Yeah yeah... someday Heaven will be moved to earth.

Currently, when one dies they go to be in the presence of the Lord... where He is currently seated at God's Right Hand in Heaven.

Let me re-phrase... "Meaning we can live in sin and still spend eternity with the Lord? "

Thanks - good to be clear on the "where we will be" aspect . . .

Answer to 2nd part is still - yup!

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

30 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Okay, I'll take purgatory on the chin without comment. But you now have to live with having negated God's prime method of getting our sanctification  - fire.

12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. (1 Pe 4:12–13)

And it negates our Lord as a Refiner.

And it negates chastisement bringing righteousness and making us "partakers of His holiness." (Heb.12)

The "fire" you are speaking of is in this life and it's hard times.

Let's not confuse that with people dying in their sin and being sent to hell.

There are no second chances once we die and leave club earth as the catholics claim and have no scripture to prove

[AdHoc]

23 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

The "fire" you are speaking of is in this life and it's hard times.

Let's not confuse that with people dying in their sin and being sent to hell.

There are no second chances once we die and leave club earth as the catholics claim and have no scripture to prove

Okay. Just for clarity, where is hell? Please show us the scriptures. There is no such word in scripture. It is a Roman Catholic concept. The texts give either (i) Gehenna, a valley on the south side of Jerusalem, (ii) Hades, a place in the heart of the earth for the souls of dead men, or (iii) Tarteroo, a place under the earth where spirits who were disobedient in Noah's time are kept pending judgment. But hell ... ? Where or what is that but Roman doctrine? It would seem that you favor Roman concepts.

And "dying in their sin"? How is it that the Beast and the False Prophet go LIVING into the Lake of Fire (Rev.19:20)? The goats of Matthew 25 go living into "everlasting Punishment". Those at the White Throne are first RAISED and Hades is emptied. THEN they who "stand" are sent to the Lake of Fire. In Matthew 10:28 a a man can go to Gehenna LIVING since he possesses both BODY AND SOUL

The phrase "die in your sins" appears twice in the Bible. "Go to hell" is not in the context. When a man dies he goes to Hades (Act.2:27, 31). I would venture that you are the lover of Roman doctrine.

You have been presented with 1st Corinthians 3:13-15 by @Vine Abider and consistently refuse to explain it. You accuse of "cherry picking" as if some scriptures are wrong. But those in this text are openly Christians (1st Cor.1:1-2). They all build the House of God. "The DAY" is the Day when Jesus judges - for "reward" and "loss" are administered. The grammar is plain. The test is FIRE. Some suffer a LOSS. Those whose WORK is burned suffer FIRE. Yet those whose WORK is burned and who are burned, ARE YET SAVED.

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire

In 1st Corinthians 10:1-11 the Holy Spirit says that our walk is illustrated by Israel's history. Israel, at first failed to enter Canaan. They sleep in the dust of Sinai. Others were ejected from the Land and lie in the dust of Egypt, Assyria and Babylon. Millions are ashes by fires in Germany. But in Daniel 12:1-2 a day is coming when they will be raised up and gathered to the Land. You have to be in a Book for this. But the Book contains BOTH those who inherit everlasting life AND those who are contemptible. How so?

In Revelation 13:7 the saints are Overcome by the Beast. How are they still called "saints". In Revelation 18:4 we find God's People in Mystery Babylon. How are they still called "My people". The Prodigal leaves his father and his father's house. He takes his inheritance early. He squanders it. He dwells with swine - an unclean animal. He returns ot his "Father". But by your doctrine he is NOT the SON anymore. How then is he called "SON" and given the garment and status of "son"? Seeing as your doctrine has him un-born, is scripture in vain? How can he be a "son" when his birth is overthrown by his WORKS?

It was consistently pointed out to you that a man is saved by FAITH. But you have a man called to heaven FOR WORKS. Is this not what the Reformers fought against?

You consistently maintain that a man who sins loses his salvation. But you readily agree that the man is "chastised in this life". I ask - what for, if his salvation is gone? Jesus is our Mediator when we sin. You say sin loses a man's salvation when he sins. Why then a Mediator? You say that a man is saved by Christ's Works, but that he is "un-saved" by his own works. You will not enter into exegesis on proffered scripture, yet maintain that loss of salvation is scriptural. But if so then ALL scripture must agree otherwise the Bible is untrue. That is, you cannot pit one scripture against another. You have to reconcile the opposition's proofs.

My suggestion is to find a scripture that clearly says one's rebirth and forgiveness of sins is withdrawn, and the eternal life the Christian has is killed, and show what sin is greater than the death of Christ, that disables Christ's propitiation towards a man who sins.

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

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I would venture that you are the lover of Roman doctrine.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Stan Murff

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

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You have been presented with 1st Corinthians 3:13-15 and consistently refuse to explain it

That's not true not true, I've addressed as something that is being twisted to make people think one can live in sin and still go to Heaven which is false doctrine.

 

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It was consistently pointed out to you that a man is saved by FAITH. But you have a man called to heaven FOR WORKS. Is this not what the Reformers fought against?

 

The Lord says the following thru the Apostle James:

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Apparently one is justified by faith AND by works.... and the man that believes justification is by faith only is a "vain" man.

Sounds like either Jesus is wrong or the so called reformers are wrong since they teach an partial truth and leave the part out about works leaving the door open to sinful living (license to sin).

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

It's not a matter of trying to earn salvation thru good works... It's a matter of being obedient verses being disobedient!

Those that accept the calling of the Lord and become new creatures in Christ Jesus abiding in Him doing good works by the power of the Holy Spirit within as the Lord leads... these are true children of God.

Those claiming to be saved not walking in obedience have rejected the ordination and calling of the Lord and are the children of disobedience who refuse to put on the new man and walk in newness of life to stop being servants of sin...

Colossians 3:5-9
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Ephesians 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Romans 13:14
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Romans 6:4-6
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

As these scripture references indicate, those not accepting the calling of the Lord to be led by the Holy Ghost into walking after the new man are in disobedience... which will NOT end well for them unless they repent of their sin and get with the Lord's game plan!

 

[Vine Abider]

17 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

That's not true not true, I've addressed as something that is being twisted to make people think one can live in sin and still go to Heaven which is false doctrine.
As these scripture references indicate, those not accepting the calling of the Lord to be led by the Holy Ghost into walking after the new man are in disobedience... which will NOT end well for them unless they repent of their sin and get with the Lord's game plan!

So I'm fairly in agreement with you here - it will not go well for Christians living in sin.  Respectively, I see this as a matter that it will not go well for them at the Judgment (Bema) Seat of Christ; you see this as a loss of salvation.

Let's leave it at that, unless we want a third thread to go down the OSAS debate rabbit hole . . .  Agreed?

[Marathoner]

I don't find fault with the point @Stan Murff is driving at.

It's simple: faith produces works, but not just good deeds. These works are those God has ordained for us to walk in. These works, then, reflect our faith in Jesus Christ. 

I prefer to couch it simply: we listen for His voice and when we hear Him, we obey Him. The Lord spoke of this in the Gospel of John (John 10), and He also spoke of this earlier in the book of Jeremiah (Jeremiah 7:23). 

I believe it's best to keep simple matters, simple. The Lord is our God, yes? He is indeed. So, when He speaks, we obey His voice. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that.