Why does the word "made" in relation to Christ make some people nuts?

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

While I have you guys in here, can any of you tell me why its chicken scratched into the creed, "Begotten NOT made" beside verse John 1:18? Obviously the word "made" (a verb)  isn't in that verse but isn't it being "stacked against" an adjective (begotten, as in only begotten) and not the actual verb "begotten" as is shown in Hebrews 5:5? 

That doesnt make sense to do if you are making a sort of correction in doing so (because thats the first thing you think of when you read it) You see reference to the verse and say to yourself, Oh yeah, begotten (as in verb) NOT made (this "other" verb)  where the word "only begotten" is there which is the same as "only child" as an adjective (not as a verb).

See what I am asking about?

Because here, the word made and begotten are equally verbs 

Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made G1096 an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten G1080 thee.

And so if it was just about stressing the preferable verb (meaning, "begotten/preferred verb NOT made/least preferred verb) when it come to John 1:18. Still doesnt make sense because it doesnt just say, "begotten" adjective, it says, "only begotten" (adjective).

Adding, "begotten NOT made" beside the chapter/verse  leaves "only" out and just sets it up to appear as if its setting up one verb (made) against the other, or rather, the more preferrable verb, "begotten" as it might be seen more clearly in Hebrews 5:5.

It does not seem "equal" there if you are following me.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by AFlameOfFire

[PATrobas]

1 hour ago, AFlameOfFire said:

While I have you guys in here, can any of you tell me why its chicken scratched into the creed, "Begotten NOT made" beside verse John 1:18? Obviously the word "made" (a verb)  isn't in that verse but isn't it being "stacked against" an adjective (begotten, as in only begotten) and not the actual verb "begotten" as is shown in Hebrews 5:5? 

That doesnt make sense to do if you are making a sort of correction in doing so (because thats the first thing you think of when you read it) You see reference to the verse and say to yourself, Oh yeah, begotten (as in verb) NOT made (this "other" verb)  where the word "only begotten" is there which is the same as "only child" as an adjective (not as a verb).

See what I am asking about?

Because here, the word made and begotten are equally verbs 

Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made G1096 an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten G1080 thee.

And so if it was just about stressing the preferable verb (meaning, "begotten/preferred verb NOT made/least preferred verb) when it come to John 1:18. Still doesnt make sense because it doesnt just say, "begotten" adjective, it says, "only begotten" (adjective).

Adding, "begotten NOT made" beside the chapter/verse  leaves "only" out and just sets it up to appear as if its setting up one verb (made) against the other, or rather, the more preferrable verb, "negotten" as it might be seen more clearly in Hebrews 5:5.

It does not seem "equal" there if you are following me.

 

 

I don't quite follow all that (!) however, "the only begotten son" in John refers to God's direct intervention in the human conception of Jesus. God has many "sons" (i.e. all who are born again) by adoption and the spiritual new birth, but only "one" only begotten son. Jesus was "made of a woman" (Gal. 4:4) i.e. formed in the womb, but conceived of the Holy Spirit. Jesus' father was God, not a man. Thus the importance of Mary being a virgin, so that Jesus' nature was not from Adam but from His father God. Secondly, the Hebrews reference of begotten is concerning His resurrection from the dead to priesthood, not His birth to become the savior. (Ps.2:7)

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

59 minutes ago, PATrobas said:

I don't quite follow all that (!) however, "the only begotten son" in John refers to God's direct intervention in the human conception of Jesus. God has many "sons" (i.e. all who are born again) by adoption and the spiritual new birth, but only "one" only begotten son. Jesus was "made of a woman" (Gal. 4:4) i.e. formed in the womb, but conceived of the Holy Spirit. Jesus' father was God, not a man. Thus the importance of Mary being a virgin, so that Jesus' nature was not from Adam but from His father God. Secondly, the Hebrews reference of begotten is concerning His resurrection from the dead to priesthood, not His birth to become the savior. (Ps.2:7)

PATrobas, I am in agreement with his being made (verb)  high priest and being begotten (verb) in Hebrews 5:5 pertains to his resurrection as shown in Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. So this has nothing to do with being made of a woman made under the law, made of the seed of david, made a little lower than the angels etc etc. Both are verbs, made (whether of a woman) or begotten (speaking of his resurrection) in both places, whereas the creed lists John 1:18 and then chicken scratches, "Begotten/ as if a verb NOT made (an actual verb) but not a word even used in the text. Its an adjective. 

Its used here but written out "only child"

Luke 9:38 And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child. ^G3439

^{I mean if I would write a new creed and used that verse in place of John 1:18 it would look like this}

^{Only child, NOT made Luke 9:38}

^{That makes not sense, the verb (made) isnt in either verse, whether its John 1:18 or Luke 9:38, the adjective describes an only son, or only child, its not the verb "begotten" in Hebrews 5:5. So what it appears to be doing is making the word "made" an issue concerning Jesus birth on earth as it pertains only to John 1:18 when  Gal 4:4 Paul uses the word made in respects to Jesus being made of Mary there, so its unecessary}

^{Gal 4:4} But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made  ^G1096 of a woman, made under the law,

Same exact word they exchange out when the creed quotes, John 1:14 but changes it to became in the creed

John 1:14 And the Word was made  ^G1096 flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The creed looks like this (where both the word made/verb is along with the adjective, only begotten)

John 1:14 "Became man"

Notice it just exchanges out the word "made" there because BOTH made and begotten are used in John 1:14 they cannot do that there they did that in John 1:18 where they can "make it appear" that they are opting for the better (and more preferred verb "begotten") when neither the word "made (the verb) exists in that verse or the word "begotten" (the verb) as it is in Hebrews 5:5.

This might be hard to follow, but to use the word "made" (to them) is this big "no no" as it pertains to Mary, they change it to "became" in the creed where the word "made" does exist, and emphasize the so called importance of it in John 1:18 of it being "begotten" NOT made AS IF they are exchanging between 2 verbs, its not though. And the word Begotten (the verb) does not apply there  but except for his resurrection, whereas made (a verb, which can be exchanged with became, because its done throughout scripture) is used at his birth. 

This takes awhile to wrap your head around this, I have been looking at this (and at this fake condemnation concerning this very thing) for the last few days, because they seemed to notice this in the verses I posted because they found this threatening in some way, which has fueled me to look closer at this.

Changes nothing regarding the scriptures, but what they seem to want to give an impression of by avoiding certain words. Its this word phobia they have with this thing. Now I am understanding a little more why these little additions were added to the creed when completely unecessary.

Also, Melchedek was made like unto the Son of God who would arise to be made a priest after that order on the day "this day" when he was begotten of God (there). And made like unto him how? "without mother and father, descent". For if he were on earth "he should not be a priest" and the last we hear about Mary, the mother of Jesus by name is in the upper room in the beginning of Acts 1:14 just before pentacost, where the days where the holy Ghost would be poured out on all handmaidens of the Lord equally.  Whereas they present pictures types of Mary on a throne with baby Jesus on her lap (in short, that mindset) that tries more to keep Mary propped up (and Jesus "so small"). So, was that more the problem they might have been having with me with this because I was trying to show how God is not at all word phobic (they were, and around the word "made") and I posted examples of the various scriptures, so as I kept thinking about this, its about something much bigger than what I was first made aware of.

You are probrobly not following any of this either, which is okay, it will take me a little bit to put it out there in a more understandable/inteligle way. I am really bad at wording things in my own words, thats not a strong point of mine. I just had one of those "ah hah" moments conerning a mindset I could never understand, which made sense now as to why these things were triggering certain people in some way (concerning these things ).

Good post, I agree, at least I think I do 

 

Edit, why is the font so funky? I cant get my posts to look normal

Edited September 28, 2023 by AFlameOfFire

[Neighbor]

"You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.  And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.  You therefore must endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.  No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier.  And also if anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.  The hardworking farmer must be first to partake of the crops. Consider what I say, and may the Lord give you understanding in all things.

 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel,  for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained.  Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

 This is a faithful saying:

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.

Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers.  Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.  But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.  And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,  who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.  Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.  Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.  Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.  And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,  in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,  and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will."

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

Amen Neighbor

[WilliamL]

On 9/27/2023 at 4:37 PM, AFlameOfFire said:

why its chicken scratched into the creed, "Begotten NOT made" beside verse John 1:18?

The word used is monogenes, which literally means "only caused to be." Which might mean, according to a context, only made or only born/begotten. But from the whole NT context we know that Jesus was born/begotten of a woman. 

However, later in Church history, some of the Gnostics claimed that Jesus was a purely spiritual being and never incarnated in flesh at all, because they considered all flesh inherently evil. Arians claimed that Jesus was not the incarnation of the Father, but rather was another, lesser god. So this marginal reading probably was added to address such heresies.

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

43 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

The word used is monogenes, which literally means "only caused to be." Which might mean, according to a context, only made or only born/begotten. But from the whole NT context we know that Jesus was born/begotten of a woman. 

However, later in Church history, some of the Gnostics claimed that Jesus was a purely spiritual being and never incarnated in flesh at all, because they considered all flesh inherently evil. Arians claimed that Jesus was not the incarnation of the Father, but rather was another, lesser god. So this marginal reading probably was added to address such heresies.

 

I was writing these out the other day and then got distracted, I have the following between these three here, two are adjectives and the one pertaining to his resurrection are the verbs in the following

Monogenes(*adjective) G3439 

single of its kind, only

used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)

used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

 

Examples,

Luke 7:12 Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the only G3439 son of his mother, and she was a widow: and much people of the city was with her.

Luke 8:43 For he had one only G3439 daughter, about twelve years of age, and she lay a dying. But as he went the people thronged him.

Luke 9:38 And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child. G3439

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten G3439 of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten G3439 Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten G3439 Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten G3439 Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten G3439 son,

1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten G3439 Son into the world,  that we might live through him.

 

Prototokos (*adjective) G4416

the firstborn

of man or beast

of Christ, the first born of all creation

 

Examples

Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn G4416 son: and he called his name JESUS.

Luke 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn G4416 son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that 
he might be the firstborn G4416 among many brethren.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn G4416 of every creature:

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn G4416 from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. (See Hebrews 1:5, from the dead)

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten G4416 into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Hebrews 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn G4416 should touch them. (See also John 1:18)

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, G4416 which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten G4416 of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

 

Gennao (*verb) G1080

of men who fathered children

to be born

to be begotten

of women giving birth to children

metaph.

to engender, cause to arise, excite

in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone

of God making Christ his son

of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work

Begotten used as a verb and what day he was begotten

 

Examples, as the following pertain to the resurrection of Jesus Christ

 

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten G1080 thee.

Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten G1080 thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, 
Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten G1080 thee.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat 
loveth him also that is begotten G1080 of him.

Examples outside the resurrection used by the aspotles

1 Cr 4:14 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten G1080 you through the gospel.

Phm 1:10 I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten G1080  in my bonds:

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten G1080 of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Edited September 29, 2023 by AFlameOfFire

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

35 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

The word used is monogenes, which literally means "only caused to be." Which might mean, according to a context, only made or only born/begotten. But from the whole NT context we know that Jesus was born/begotten of a woman. 

However, later in Church history, some of the Gnostics claimed that Jesus was a purely spiritual being and never incarnated in flesh at all, because they considered all flesh inherently evil. Arians claimed that Jesus was not the incarnation of the Father, but rather was another, lesser god. So this marginal reading probably was added to address such heresies.

They were making this thing my problem over Begotten, not made; (John 1:8) as THAT is how they have it shown in their creed

It says, "Begotten NOT made" (AS IF) if it was one VERB against another, the WORD is ONLY Begotten as in an adjective. To chicken scratch that on there comes off as being deceptive. Is the word "made" in John 1:8? No, Made is a verb, its no where to be found in that verse, so whats the problem? Because made is used ELSEWHERE and they are using THAT place to nail people to a wall over (where the actual word "made" is found used when talking about "the ONLY Begotten"). They didn't even chicken scratch, "ONLY Begotten, NOT made", but rather, "Begotten NOT made" as if they are making an equal comparison/ contrast between two equal parts of speech, one of which "should be" found in the verse (but not one of them is). They arent equal.

This just gets under my skin

 

Edit corrected that first sentence, it was incorrectly worded

Edited September 29, 2023 by AFlameOfFire