The Hope of Salvation

[Mr. M]

1 Thessalonians 5:

8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love,

and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 

9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 

10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

The hope of salvation.

Romans 8:

23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan 

within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope;

for why does one still hope for what he sees? 

25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation

A recent post cited 1 Co 3:11-17 as evidence that salvation is assured,

even if their works are unfruitful.

11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 

13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire;

and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is.

14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 

15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss;

but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

However, Paul goes on to say...

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 

17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him.

For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

There is a distinct difference being shown  to exist between unfruitful works, 

and turning back to the lifestyle of the children of wrath, which defiles the Temple.

Ephesians 5:

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be

named among you, as is fitting for saints; 

4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting,

but rather giving of thanks. 

5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man,

who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 

6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things

the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 

7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Israel had to be destroyed because they defiled the land with fornication,

idolatry, and the shedding of innocent blood. How much more so for one

who defiles the Holy Temple of His Body.

Let no one deceive you with empty words

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Mr. M

[Mr. M]

Colossians 3:

5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness,

passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 

6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 

7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

Clearly, if someone falls away and turns back to their old ways, they would defile

the Temple of God, and for that reason be destroyed.

[Mr. M]

A key component of salvation is deliverance from the  wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 1:

9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you,

and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus,

which delivered us from the wrath to come.

2 Corinthians 6:

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Mr. M

[FreeGrace]

On 9/25/2023 at 5:35 PM, Mr. M said:

1 Thessalonians 5:

8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love,

and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 

Let no one deceive you with empty words

Great words of advice!!

The Greek word translated "hope" means a "confident expectation".  What it doesn't mean is "wishful thinking", as used today.

ex:  I sure hope I make to heaven.  That's just wishful thinking.  

ex of confident expectation:  I KNOW I am going to heaven, because Jesus gives eternal life (John 10:28) to those who believe in Him for it (John 5:24).

[steve morrow]

SALVATION  /  SAVED   

 

PSALM 119:155  salvation is far from the wicked for they seek not thy statutes 

 

1 CORINTHIANS 3:15  if any mans work shall be burned he shall suffer loss --- but he himself shall be saved yet so as by fire ---

 

JEREMIAH 5:14  WHEREFORE  THUS  SAITH  THE  LORD  GOD  OF  HOSTS  ---  because you speak this word   BEHOLD  ---  I  WILL  MAKE  MY  WORDS  IN  THY  MOUTH  FIRE  ---  AND  THIS  PEOPLE  WOOD  AND  IT  SHALL  DEVOUR  THEM ---

 

MARK 8:35  for whosoeverwill save his life shall lose it but whosoever shall lose his life --- for my sake  --  AND  THE  GOSPELS  THE  SAME  SHALL  SAVE  IT  ---

 

ARE  YOU  WORTHY  

 

LUKE 21:33  heaven and earth shall pass away but  --  MY  WORDS  --  shall not pass away 

--21:34--  and take heed to yourselves lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting and drunkenness  --  and cares of this life -- and so that day come upon you unawares 

--21:35-- for as a snare shall it come on --ALL  THEM-- that dwell on the face of the whole earth 

--21:36-- watch you therefore -- AND  PRAY  ALWAYS  THAT  YOU  MAY  BE  ACCOUNTED  WORTHY -- to escape all these things that shall come to pass  ---  AND  TO  STAND  BEFORE  THE  SON  OF  MAN ---

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST  

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by steve morrow

[AdHoc]

On 9/25/2023 at 11:35 PM, Mr. M said:

1 Thessalonians 5:

8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love,

and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 

9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 

10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

The hope of salvation.

Romans 8:

23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan 

within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope;

for why does one still hope for what he sees? 

25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation

A recent post cited 1 Co 3:11-17 as evidence that salvation is assured,

even if their works are unfruitful.

11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 

13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire;

and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is.

14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 

15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss;

but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

However, Paul goes on to say...

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 

17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him.

For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

There is a distinct difference being shown  to exist between unfruitful works, 

and turning back to the lifestyle of the children of wrath, which defiles the Temple.

Ephesians 5:

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be

named among you, as is fitting for saints; 

4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting,

but rather giving of thanks. 

5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man,

who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 

6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things

the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 

7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Israel had to be destroyed because they defiled the land with fornication,

idolatry, and the shedding of innocent blood. How much more so for one

who defiles the Holy Temple of His Body.

Let no one deceive you with empty words

 

The meaning of the Greek for "destruction" should be studied, for on it hangs the understanding of these passages. Here is Vine verbatim;

1. apollumi (ἀπόλλυμι, 622), a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies “to destroy utterly”; in middle voice, “to perish.” The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of wellbeing. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luke 5:37; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Luke 15:4, 6, etc.; the lost son, 15:24; of the perishing of food, John 6:27; of gold, 1 Pet. 1:7. So of persons, Matt. 2:13, “destroy”; 8:25, “perish”; 22:7; 27:20; of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter, Matt. 10:28; Luke 13:3, 5; John 3:16 (v. 15 in some mss.); 10:28; 17:12; Rom. 2:12; 1 Cor. 15:18; 2 Cor. 2:15, “are perishing”; 4:3; 2 Thess. 2:10; Jas. 4:12; 2 Pet. 3:9. Cf. B, II, No. 1. See DIE, LOSE, MARRED, PERISH.

(Vine, W. E., Unger, M. F., & White, W., Jr. (1996). Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Vol. 2, p. 164). Nashville, TN: T. Nelson.)

The Titanic is a great ship. It was designed to sail the waves in almost total safety. It was made with the best materials and incorporated a system of isolating a leak. Today, it lies at the bottom of the Atlantic. But all the component parts are still there. the steel, the design, the safety systems are all still there. But it has suffered ruin for the intended purpose. It is like an Olympic athlete who is about to run the 100 meter sprint but because a drug test that morning he is put in handcuffs. He is STILL a top athlete. His muscles bristle. His large heart still pumps more blood than his opponents. His reaction-time at the starter pistol is still honed. But he may not run. He may not do that fr which he trained. His well-being lies in ruins.

If this is the meaning of "destruction" then a Christian who fails is still very much a Christian. He is a Christian because he once believed in Jesus and called upon Him. The athlete above cannot stop being an athlete. But he can go to jail. He cannot stop being a  man. Handcuffs do not take away his being, his humanity, his prowess, his talent and his physique. Everything is intact except he cannot carry on with the intended purpose.

The man's FAITH caused God to place his sins on Jesus - a Substitute. The man's FAITH caused a new and second birth - and this, applied to the human spirit (Jn.3:3-6). This new birth made him a son of God. This new birth imparted the divine life into this man. The things of God are displayed by two things; (i) the Bible, and (ii) nature (Rom.1:20). Now, NEITHER in the Bible nor in Nature is a man "un-birthed". NEITHER in the Bible not nature can a son be "un-fathered". Neither in the Bible NOR in Nature can a species lose its NATURE Once a puppy is born to a bitch it is forever a dog. No man born to th ALL-mighty can be "un-fathered".

But if the man experienced forgiveness, rebirth, the divine nature and sonship to God SO THAT he might be a useful STEWARD to manage God's affairs, THEN his behavior can have consequences - CONSEQUENCES IN STEWARDSHIP. The unfaithful STEWARD of Luke 16 shows this, as does a multitude of other cases. In Matthew 7:21-23 the Lord bans them from THE KINGDOM. He does not take away the Holy Spirit from their lives. He says "DEPART". The consequences concern Christ's presence and POSITION in the KIngdom. In Matthew 25 the servants with Talents remain SERVANTS, but their tool for service is removed. The foolish Virgins are still Virgins, but entry to the feast is cancelled. The prodigal son may no longer have an inheritance, but his sonship is not questioned. The father CONFIRMS IT.

[Mr. M]

9 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The meaning of the Greek for "destruction" should be studied, for on it hangs the understanding of these passages. Here is Vine verbatim;

 

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile ([G5351]-phtheiro=corrupt) the temple of God,

him shall God destroy ([G5351]-phtheiro=corrupt)

for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Paul uses the same word in both cases, but this fact is obscured by the fact that the translation differs. In neither case is appolumi used, and is not a valid point for the discussion.

Ephesians 4:

22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct,

the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 

23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 

24 and that you put on the new man which was created

according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Again, corrupt phitheiro>from phithio to pine or waste away.

9 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The Titanic is a great ship. It was designed to sail the waves in almost total safety. It was made with the best materials and incorporated a system of isolating a leak. Today, it lies at the bottom of the Atlantic. But all the component parts are still there. the steel, the design, the safety systems are all still there. But it has suffered ruin for the intended purpose. It is like an Olympic athlete who is about to run the 100 meter sprint but because a drug test that morning he is put in handcuffs. He is STILL a top athlete. His muscles bristle. His large heart still pumps more blood than his opponents. His reaction-time at the starter pistol is still honed. But he may not run. He may not do that fr which he trained. His well-being lies in ruins.

If this is the meaning of "destruction" then a Christian who fails is still very much a Christian. He is a Christian because he once believed in Jesus and called upon Him. The athlete above cannot stop being an athlete. But he can go to jail. He cannot stop being a  man. Handcuffs do not take away his being, his humanity, his prowess, his talent and his physique. Everything is intact except he cannot carry on with the intended purpose.

The man's FAITH caused God to place his sins on Jesus - a Substitute. The man's FAITH caused a new and second birth - and this, applied to the human spirit (Jn.3:3-6). This new birth made him a son of God. This new birth imparted the divine life into this man. The things of God are displayed by two things; (i) the Bible, and (ii) nature (Rom.1:20). Now, NEITHER in the Bible nor in Nature is a man "un-birthed". NEITHER in the Bible not nature can a son be "un-fathered". Neither in the Bible NOR in Nature can a species lose its NATURE Once a puppy is born to a bitch it is forever a dog. No man born to th ALL-mighty can be "un-fathered".

But if the man experienced forgiveness, rebirth, the divine nature and sonship to God SO THAT he might be a useful STEWARD to manage God's affairs, THEN his behavior can have consequences - CONSEQUENCES IN STEWARDSHIP. The unfaithful STEWARD of Luke 16 shows this, as does a multitude of other cases. In Matthew 7:21-23 the Lord bans them from THE KINGDOM. He does not take away the Holy Spirit from their lives. He says "DEPART". The consequences concern Christ's presence and POSITION in the KIngdom. In Matthew 25 the servants with Talents remain SERVANTS, but their tool for service is removed. The foolish Virgins are still Virgins, but entry to the feast is cancelled. The prodigal son may no longer have an inheritance, but his sonship is not questioned. The father CONFIRMS IT.

This essay makes a vain attempt to prove OSAS, or eternal security, which seems to be an obsession among many on this forum. All it proves is the obvious, that once born again, one cannot be unborn. The consequences are vividly displayed, and if this is anyone's idea of salvation, their "reward" will be just.

Matthew 24:

48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 

49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 

50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him 

and at an hour that he is not aware of, 

51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. 

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This does not describe eternal conscious torments as some imagine, but a pining away in the ever present awareness of their separation from the City of God. Paul uses the word "anguish", which is quite apt.

Romans 2:

 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth,

but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 

9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil,

of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 

10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good,

to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 

11 For there is no partiality with God.

"indignation and wrath"

The intent of the OP, and actual topic is "the hope of salvation", in terms

of the idea of "deliverance from wrath".

On 9/25/2023 at 2:35 PM, Mr. M said:

9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation

On 9/25/2023 at 2:35 PM, Mr. M said:

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope;

for why does one still hope for what he sees? 

25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation

 

On 9/25/2023 at 4:18 PM, Mr. M said:

6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 

 

On 9/29/2023 at 11:11 AM, Mr. M said:

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus,

which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Would you like a do over? 

[Mr. M]

1 minute ago, Mr. M said:

This does not describe eternal conscious torments as some imagine, but a pining away in the ever present awareness of their separation from the City of God. Paul uses the word "anguish", which is quite apt.

Revelation 21:

22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 

23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 

24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 

25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 

26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 

27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Revelation 22:

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 

15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. 

Is it any wonder that Peter would say:

2 Peter 2:21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

On 10/1/2023 at 10:06 AM, steve morrow said:

SALVATION  /  SAVED   

 

PSALM 119:155  salvation is far from the wicked for they seek not thy statutes 

 

1 CORINTHIANS 3:15  if any mans work shall be burned he shall suffer loss --- but he himself shall be saved yet so as by fire ---

 

JEREMIAH 5:14  WHEREFORE  THUS  SAITH  THE  LORD  GOD  OF  HOSTS  ---  because you speak this word   BEHOLD  ---  I  WILL  MAKE  MY  WORDS  IN  THY  MOUTH  FIRE  ---  AND  THIS  PEOPLE  WOOD  AND  IT  SHALL  DEVOUR  THEM ---

 

 

 

The above verse right there always reminded me of a patern which can be seen between these

The LORD says to his prophet

Jerm 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD

Earlier the LORD said to him of his word 

Jerm 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire,  and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

But then of the two prophets in Revelation it says also,

Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them,  he must in this manner be killed.

Similarly,  being killed/or slain  by the words of his mouth as by the prophets is shown in Hosea also

Hosea 6:5 Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.

Edited October 2, 2023 by AFlameOfFire

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

This essay makes a vain attempt to prove OSAS, or eternal security, which seems to be an obsession among many on this forum. All it proves is the obvious, that once born again, one cannot be unborn. The consequences are vividly displayed, and if this is anyone's idea of salvation, their "reward" will be just.

Matthew 24:

48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 

49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 

50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him 

and at an hour that he is not aware of, 

51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. 

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This does not describe eternal conscious torments as some imagine, but a pining away in the ever present awareness of their separation from the City of God. Paul uses the word "anguish", which is quite apt.

Your opinion without showing why it's "vain" is noted.

If however you quote Matthew 24 as proof, why, you have strengthened my position. You have already agreed that one cannot be unborn. Now you take a section of scripture that shows that even after evil WORKS that servant is still a servant and that the Lord is still his "Master". Added to this, you use the word "salvation", which does not appear in the context. The context is REWARD for evil and the cause of evil among servants of the Lord. Here is a brief exposition of your selected text.

V.48 "THAT servant". It is the same servant who did well at first
V.48 The cause of evil was that the servant had no patience, for he turns to evil because HIS LORD "delayed"
V.49 He could not have lost his salvation for he names himself a "FELLOW servant". That is, the same as the rest
V.50 Even AFTER the evil is committed the Lord is "Master of THAT servant"
V.51 The evil servant's portion is not the Lake of Fire
V.51 Weeping is a sign of sorrow and the gnashing of teeth the sign of regret. The lake of Fire produces "smoke of torment"

Your offering of Romans 2 I will leave because it concerns the Jew and the Greek - which do not exist in the Church (Gal.3:28, Col.3:11).