Are you sure that you shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven?

[Buzzard3]

On 10/21/2023 at 12:17 AM, AdHoc said:

And blue "means" green. Sky "refers" to water ...

Have you ever considered that God, the greatest mind of the universe, meant exactly what He said. It is our duty to use language accurately. It has been given to us to transmit ideas. If it is made to mean something else it becomes incoherent.

In other words, I'm wasting my time trying to reason with you from Scripture.

[other one]

Just now, Buzzard3 said:

In other words, I'm wasting my time trying to reason with you from Scripture.

 

"Pfffft"in some circles means that conversing with you is a wast of my time....

It usually works for me as long as I really drop the subject and so far it hasn't got me any warning points.

[Vine Abider]

2 minutes ago, Buzzard3 said:

In other words, I'm wasting my time trying to reason with you from Scripture.

Maybe if this thought is mutual (don't want to speak for @AdHoc here, it's time to just say, "Praise the Lord, we're in Christ . . . and we love the brothers regardless!"  

[Vine Abider]

1 minute ago, other one said:

 

"Pfffft"in some circles means that conversing with you is a wast of my time....

It usually works for me as long as I really drop the subject and so far it hasn't got me any warning points.

I was calling on the Lord for His patience and to shine light, but I am wondering where the profit is.  Maybe just more patience . . .

[Buzzard3]

On 10/21/2023 at 10:15 AM, AdHoc said:

  

God made everything. The most prominent characteristic of His creation is Government, or order. Isaiah 45:18 says;

18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited

The word "vain" is the same word used in Genesis 1:2 and means "chaos". These two verses can only be reconciled (for there are no contradictions in scripture) if something happened between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. And a study of Genesis 1:2 shows that its correct rendering is; 

2 But the earth BECAME VAIN, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

What ever happened is not directly said, but strong evidence emerges that Lucifer was the previous governor of the earth and mismanaged it. I refer you to Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 for your own decision. The three words used in Isaiah 45:18, "created", "made", and "formed" are three different words and mean respectively that God "created" (bara - Heb.), that is, made out of nothing, "made" (Asah - Heb.) out of existing materials, and "formed" (yatsar - Heb.) as a potter forms clay. In Genesis 1 Gd only "created" the earth and "created" the living creatures because the soul of man and animals did not exist before.

Otherwise, in Genesis Chapter 1 the word "made" is used. That is, what happened in six days was a RESTORATION "made" out of materials already at hand. Into this restored, or pristine earth, God inserts man as the new governor. Three salient words dominate Genesis 1:26-28: (1) Image and Likeness, (2) "subdue", and (3) "rule". God's plan was to have a creature acting, deciding and feeling like God would, FIRST to subdue a rebellion and then to rule with God's style of rule.

To achieve His plan with man, "who was made lower than the angels" (Psalm 8 and Hebrews 2), God designed man to be a Vessel to contain God Himself. God would then dwell in man (individual and corporate) and enable man, through His divine life, to be like God in disposition, and have the power to to deal with forces larger than he was. The way to achieve this was through the mouth - eating the fruit of the Tree of Life. Man was then to embark on subjugating any power and/or principality that did not promote God's government. And once this was done, to administer the EARTH in a godly fashion.

We know the rest of the story. Man failed. Salvation is the process of restoring a man to God's image and likeness (Rom.8:29), and the Kingdom is when those who have been found worthy will take their seats as co-kings of this earth with Jesus Christ. Salvation could not be achieved by man but the kingdom is a matter of training and self discipline - works ...

With your permission (i hope), I'll continue my posting of page 23 on the Kingdom.

A Kingdom is defined as a king and his sphere of authority. If a king delegates his authority and goes on journey, his delegates exercise His authority. If the king returns he may continue with His delegates, as Pharaoh did with Joseph, or he may continue as a sovereign like Nebuchadnezzar after his isolation. Daniel predicted, in Aramaic, what was to befall the Gentiles who God had given authority to. Babylon and three other following world powers would exercise  rule over the earth and then be replaced by God's kingdom (2:34-35). But from various scriptures like Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, it is clear that the previous governments were heavenly and spiritual.

When our Lord Jesus came the first time the problem He faced was not the Roman Empire. It was Israel's sin and sins. So His tactic was to first attack the Deceiver and his kingdom and leave off judgment of men to give them time to repent and be reconciled to God. So you rightly said that if our Lord cast out demons then the kingdom was "among" them. This overture was refused by Israel and the King (Jesus) retreated to heaven with full authority to raise up another people who would corporately subdue and rule the earth - the Ekklesia, or, the Church. Since His departure, the only sphere of rule God has ON EARTH is the Church. Thus, John, in Revelation 1:9, is in the Church, but calls it the "kingdom and patience" of the Lord.

For a set time God has prepared a way for men to be reconciled to God and to be trained to subdue and rule - the Church age. For man to be qualified for this lofty calling, he needed the following:
1. His sin and sins needed to be put away.
2. He needed a New and additional birth to become a son of God for inheriting, and seed of Christ to have His life to be like Him
3. He needed a transforming work in his life to change the fallen character toa godly one
4. He needed a new and heavenly body to be fit to be a co-king with a glorified Lord

Points 1, 2 and 4 were impossible for fallen and corrupt man to achieve. So our Lord Jesus does these works for him. the Holy Spirit applies them to any man who believes in the work of Christ. Point #3 needs the cooperation of the man. Through eating Christ, studying His Word, self denial and a love relationship with Jesus, the man, in cooperation with the Holy Spirit, is transformed into the iage of Christ (Rom.8:29, 2nd Cor.3:18). That is, the man's WORKS decide if he is qualified or not to be co-king with Jesus.

The sacrifice that a man must make to achieve this high standard is the loss of his "soul-life" (psuche - Gk. - Matt.16:25). Not all Christians will be motivated to do this. So God, in His wisdom, sets aside the first 1,000 years of His eternal Kingdom as a REWARD. This Kingdom will be established ON EARTH when Jesus returns and will include both subduing and ruling the Nations (Rev.2:27). Those found to have followed Christ, to have been obedient and to have had an intimate walk with Jesus, will be co-kings in the following 1,000 years AND be the guests to Christ's Wedding Feast.

Thus, salvation from God's wrath and retribution, rebirth and resurrection are achieved by CHRIST'S WORK and the believers FAITH in this Person. His entry into the coming Kingdom is by WORKS of righteosness. The threat fcinga wayward Christian is not loss of his salvation, but a refusal by the Judge, Jesus, for that man to ENTER the kingdom as a co-king.

I would encourage you to consider this because ...

When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. (Mt 13:19)

What?

Edited October 22, 2023 by Buzzard3

[Buzzard3]

On 10/21/2023 at 6:30 AM, Vine Abider said:

You certainly see our salvation differently. I'm curious - were you brought up that way and/or what denomination(s) did you get that from? 

Did you know Christianity actually existed for 1500 years before the Reformation?  If you want to learn about authentic Christainity, try studying what the Early Church Fathers preached.

On 10/21/2023 at 6:30 AM, Vine Abider said:

Groups I've been in since the 70s taught that eternal life starts when we were born-again and can't be lost, and taught progressive salvation (we were saved with a regenerated spirit, our souls are now being saved, later our bodies will be saved).

Have you looked at this thread below? It provides two sets of verses another brother put together, which either seem to advocate for your paradigm or mine.  In looking through these, I can see where some verses might be construed to show what you are saying.  Can you see any verses at all that might possibly show eternal life can't be lost?

 

I've given up on trying to have a rational discussion with you about Scripture.  Sorry.

As for the so-called Reformers, such as like Calvin and Wesley and Luther, if you ask me, they all preached rubbish.  The Early Church Father's would have laughed at their nonsense theologies.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Buzzard3

[Willa]

Some of the church fathers were also rubbish and strayed far from Scripture. which they debated among themselves.

[Willa]

Augustine even took one stand early on and later reversed his position.  They weren't perfect.  We must rely on Scripture.  

[AdHoc]

9 hours ago, Buzzard3 said:

In other words, I'm wasting my time trying to reason with you from Scripture.

That, I'm afraid, is not possible. You have yet to take a verse and not change the wording. If more than one poster notices this, it would profit much if you dealt ONLY with scripture. "You mean", "are you saying", "refers to", "cannot take it literally" and such are not warranted. God said what He said.

[Vine Abider]

9 hours ago, Willa said:

Some of the church fathers were also rubbish and strayed far from Scripture. which they debated among themselves.

That is exactly right! I have heard it said various times that the early church fathers believed this or that, only to find that it either wasn't necessarily so or there were Church fathers that said pretty much the opposite! So that is really a non sequitur.

(another thing I've found often is someone will say, "This teaching wasn't around until recently and the church fathers didn't believe that" - only to find some church fathers actually did believe it)

CC: @Buzzard3