Matter in Motion: Gravity Fluctuations

[The Barbarian]

1 hour ago, NConly said:

Don't blame Harvey he was quoting the high paid guessers.

Scientists don't make nearly as much as you seem to think we do.    And carcinogens aren't a guess.   I think he just got the beans thing backwards.   Science shows that beans tend to reduce some kinds of cancer.

 

[FreeGrace]

On 5/12/2024 at 9:05 AM, RV_Wizard said:

The end of the world IS coming and it IS man-made; caused by the sins of mankind and their utter rejection of Jesus Christ as their savior and God as their Creator.  It begins with Jesus coming in the clouds to take away His own.  That is followed by seven years of tribulation in which about half of mankind is destroyed.  Then Christ will return and reign for a thousand years.

Actually, the end of the world will not be "man-made" but by God Himself.  His plan is for a new heaven and earth, per Rev 21.  ANd because God is omniscient, that has been His plan all along.

As to the idea of "Jesus coming in the clouds to tae away His own", since there are no verses that describe such an event, from what source did you cull your data?

In fact, the Bible teaches, and very clearly, that there is one singular resurrection of the saved, and this resurrection will be at the Second Advent, and ALL believers in human history will be involved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This chapter is THE chapter on the resurrection of believers.  The red words refer to the fact that Jesus was the first human to receive an immortal glorified body, per Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

We know that there are at least 2 references from the OT of dead bodies returning to life, as well as the many people that Jesus and His disciples raised from the dead.  However, because of Acts 26:23, we know that all those who were raised to life didn't receive an immortal glorified body, and all died again.

The blue words refer to the Second Advent, per Heb 9:28 - so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.  A pre-trib resurrection is impossible for the FACT that every believer will be resurrected "when He comes", per 1 Cor 15:23.

The purple words refer to every saved person in human history.

So, if I have mis-interpreted any of these verses, please correct my error by pointing me to the facts of Scripture that refute what I've said.  Thanks.

[RV_Wizard]

7 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Actually, the end of the world will not be "man-made" but by God Himself

Semantics.  Man's sin condemned the world.  All would have been different had Adam behaved himself.

7 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

As to the idea of "Jesus coming in the clouds to tae away His own", since there are no verses that describe such an event,

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There are, in fact, several verses that describes the rapture.  A simple Google search will yield many results.

8 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The red words refer to the fact that Jesus was the first human to receive an immortal glorified body,

Jesus is God, not human,  Even when He walked among us, He was, and is, God.

8 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

We know that there are at least 2 references from the OT of dead bodies returning to life, as well as the many people that Jesus and His disciples raised from the dead.

There are a total of 10 instances in the Bible where the dead were raised to life.  When Jesus died on the cross, there was a great earthquake and an undisclosed number of dead people returned to life and walked throughout the city.

8 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Sorry. Not true. Pure heresy.  Christ died to take away the sins of the world.  The only requirement is that we believe in Him, accept His sacrifice, and make Him the Lord of our lives.  When He appears in the clouds He will gather His own to Him; beginning with the dead and then removing those who are saved from the world before the beginning of the tribulations.  After 7 years of tribulations, He will return to reign on earth for a thousand years.  

Our pastor had a very detailed study of the book of the Revelation.  It lasted about 3 months.  

 

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  FreeGrace said:

Actually, the end of the world will not be "man-made" but by God Himself

Semantics.  Man's sin condemned the world.

No, actually, FACTS.  It's all in the Bible.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  All would have been different had Adam behaved himself.

Since God is omniscient, when He created man, He already knew (always knew) the result and the plan to create a new heaven and earth.  FACT.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There are, in fact, several verses that describes the rapture.

If there are "several verses" describing "the rapture", why didn't you quote any of them?  Matt 24:30 is AFTER the Tribulation, Rev 1:7 is prophecy of the Second Advent, and 1 Thess 4:13-17 is also about the Second Advent.

There is NO MENTION in any verse in the Bible about Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven.  

So, to thoroughly embarrass me, all you have to do is quote just ONE verse that does describe Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  A simple Google search will yield many results.

No, I prefer using the Berean verification method, per Acts 17:11.  I search the Scriptures every day to see if what whoever says is true.  So, ball is on your side.  Where is that verse?

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Jesus is God, not human,  Even when He walked among us, He was, and is, God.

Rather, the Bible says His ancestry was traced to King David.  And you apparently missed the event when Gabriel visited Mary and told her she would have a Son by the Holy Spirit.  

Wow.  You believe the earth is only about 6,000 years old, there will be a pre-trib rapture, and Jesus wasn't human.

I think you've got some (MUCH) learning to do.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

There are a total of 10 instances in the Bible where the dead were raised to life.  When Jesus died on the cross, there was a great earthquake and an undisclosed number of dead people returned to life and walked throughout the city.

And?  Does the Bible say that any of them received immortal glorified bodies?  Not even Lazarus did.  In fact, the Jewish leaders were considering killing him along with Jesus, per John 12:10.  What you have is no evidence for what you believe.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Sorry. Not true. Pure heresy.  Christ died to take away the sins of the world.  The only requirement is that we believe in Him, accept His sacrifice, and make Him the Lord of our lives.

So wrong, and on so many levels!

First, I was quoting Heb 9:28, to which you retorted - "sorry, not true, pure heresy".  So at least it is clear that you have charged a verse with heresy.  But it doesn't surprise me.

Second, your 3 step salvation is unbiblical.  There is only 1 requirement for salvation;  that we trust (believe) in the finished work of Christ on the cross for our sins.  The notion of "making Him the Lord of our lives" is associated with sanctification, or spiritual growth.  You've got the cart before the horse.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  When He appears in the clouds He will gather His own to Him; beginning with the dead and then removing those who are saved from the world before the beginning of the tribulations.

Where is the verse that DESCRIBES Jesus taking resurrected saints to heaven?  Where, oh where, oh where?

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  After 7 years of tribulations, He will return to reign on earth for a thousand years.

I'm going to quote another verse.  Let's see is you accuse that verse of heresy as well.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Red words refer to Christ receiving the FIRST resurrection body, per Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Blue words refer to the Second Advent, because EVERY verse speaking of "the COMING of Jesus" refers to the Second Advent, per Heb 9:28 - so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Consider this:  IF 1 Cor 15:23 refers to a pretrib rapture, then all the living saints at the end of the Tribulation will have lost out.

The purple words refer to every saved person in human history.  Or, if you disagree, please prove (refute) that there is any group of saved people who don't belong to Him.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Our pastor had a very detailed study of the book of the Revelation.  It lasted about 3 months.  

That's nice.  Now, I've given you verses to consider.  Maybe you'll just claim some or all of them are heresy like you did with Heb 9:28.  

1 Cor 15:23 clearly indicates that there will be ONE resurrection, for ALL believers, "when He comes", which is obviously the Second Advent.

And Rev 20:4-6 specifically calls that post trib resurrection the FIRST resurrection.  When do you suppose the SECOND resurrection will occur?  

Hint:  if you don't know or can't remember, you can ask your pastor, who covered Revelation in 3 months.  

[RV_Wizard]

On 12/27/2024 at 7:29 AM, FreeGrace said:

Where is the verse that DESCRIBES Jesus taking resurrected saints to heaven?

Discussion of the Revelation is for another thread.

[FreeGrace]

21 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  FreeGrace said:

Where is the verse that DESCRIBES Jesus taking resurrected saints to heaven?

Discussion of the Revelation is for another thread.

There are several in the GENERAL DISCUSSION forums.  And the question stands.  Do you have one?

[RV_Wizard]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

And the question stands

You don’t believe what the Bible says about the beginning.  Why would anyone think you would trust what it says about the end?

[FreeGrace]

49 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said:

And the question stands

You don’t believe what the Bible says about the beginning.

I certainly believe and understand what Moses wrote in Gen 1:2 and I know why Jeremiah quoted from what Moses wrote while describing the coming total disaster of the land in Jer 4.  

But you don't.  You have put your faith in English translations of Gen 1:2.  Moses didn't know any English.

Regardless, your response to my question is quite bizarre.  What does my question have to do with what verse describes Jesus taking resurrected saints to heaven?  

49 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

 Why would anyone think you would trust what it says about the end?

The resurrection of all believers isn't even close to "the end".  There will still be 1,000 years of human history.  

And after the Millennial reign of the King, there won't even be an "end".  Those rather familiar with Revelation know all that.

But, once again, you just dodge the FACT that you know there is no verse that supports a pretrib "rapture".

[RV_Wizard]

On 12/29/2024 at 5:27 PM, FreeGrace said:

I certainly believe and understand what Moses wrote in Gen 1:2 and I know why Jeremiah quoted from what Moses wrote

You've demonstrated that you understand neither.  You still haven't explained the mysterious pre-existence of a world with no light, no air, no heat, no stars and no dry land.  All these came AFTER Genesis 1:2.  You haven't explained why God claimed a six day creation in Exodus 20:11 if it didn't happen.  You haven't convinced us why modern revisions of the Bible from the 1970's should be preferred over the original translations.  You haven't explained why the apostles didn't know about the "gap," and why it didn't exist until the 19th century.  Your "Gap Theory" has too many gaps to be considered worth considering.  We're tired of seeing it in every thread.

On 12/29/2024 at 5:27 PM, FreeGrace said:

The resurrection of all believers isn't even close to "the end".

It isn't.  It will be followed by 7 years of tribulation, then the earthly return of Christ, His 1,000 year reign as king of the world, then the final judgment, the arrival of the New Jerusalem and the destruction of the universe as we know it.  Yes, the destruction of the world is a direct result of man's sin.  Our eternal salvation depends on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.  Those who accept Him as Lord will be saved.  Those who do not will perish.

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said:

I certainly believe and understand what Moses wrote in Gen 1:2 and I know why Jeremiah quoted from what Moses wrote

You've demonstrated that you understand neither.

Your denial is based on your extreme bias against ANY evidence that proves an old earth.  Jeremiah was describing the coming total disaster of the land and you seem to think those 2 words can be legitimately used to describe creation.  That is irrational.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  You still haven't explained the mysterious pre-existence of a world with no light, no air, no heat, no stars and no dry land.

I've already told you many many times, but your extreme bias keeps your eyes/ears so tightly closed nothing is getting in.

Gen 1:1 describes a complete and perfect universe and earth.  Everything is there.  Whatever occurred that resulted in an uninhabitable wasteland obivously took out more than just earth.  So God put them all back.  Not difficult to grasp at all.

I can't and won't even try to "explain a mysterious pre-existence of a world with no light, air, heat, stars, dry land".  Such a scenario never even existed because a "mysterious pre-existence of a world" never even existed.

So you are dealing with nothing but stupid fantasies.  You obviously don't want evidence, facts or truth.  

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  All these came AFTER Genesis 1:2.

Oh, yes, I agree.  AFTER the earth BECAME AN UNINHABITABLE WASTELAND, God RESTORED what was damaged.  Why is that so impossible for you to grasp?

Heb 11:3 - By faith we understand that the universe was formed (katartizo) at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Strong's Lexicon

katartizó: To restore, to equip, to perfect, to prepare, to mend

Original Word: καταρτίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katartizó
Pronunciation: kah-tar-TID-zo
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ar-tid'-zo)
Definition: To restore, to equip, to perfect, to prepare, to mend
Meaning: (a) I fit (join) together; met: I compact together, (b) act. and mid: I prepare, perfect, for his (its) full destination or use, bring into its proper condition (whether for the first time, or after a lapse).

Even the NT recognizes what happened to the earth and the subsequent restoration.

The same Greek word (katartizo) is used in Mark 1:19 - Going on a little farther, He saw James son of Zebedee and his brother John. They were in a boat, mending (katartizo) their nets.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  You haven't explained why God claimed a six day creation in Exodus 20:11 if it didn't happen.

You really need to calm down and actually READ what the Bible does say.  The word in that verse is NOT the word for "creation" as you keep hoping.  In Gen 1:1 the word for "created" is 'bara', and refers to creation out of nothing, just as Psa 33:6,9 say.

In Ex 20:11 the word is "asah", which is consistently translated as MADE, and NEVER as CREATE.  Is there a learning disability going on or what?

I have corrected error every time you say it, yet you persist in your error.  That is serious.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  You haven't convinced us why modern revisions of the Bible from the 1970's should be preferred over the original translations.

And more errors.  I went back to how the 2 Hebrew words were used in ALL 3 texts, two of which describe total destruction of the land, and Gen 1:2 has NO context.  Yet, you fantasize that they describe stages or processes in creation, the total opposite of how they are used in the other 2 texts.  That is irrational.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  You haven't explained why the apostles didn't know about the "gap," and why it didn't exist until the 19th century.

Why would any writer need to make a point anyway?  It is just a fact that the earth was restored before God created man.  The text is clear when one actually honestly understands "tohu wabohu".  The time gap was actually clearly understood by Moses, who wrote Genesis and by both Jeremiah and Isaiah who used the same words to describe total destruction.  So your phony dates are nonsense.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Your "Gap Theory" has too many gaps to be considered worth considering.

It's not mine in any sense.  The time gap belongs to God, who directed Moses to write what he wrote, and then to have Jeremiah and Isaiah to use the SAME WORDS to describe total destruction.  You just can't get around that.  Which makes your whole approach irrational.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  We're tired of seeing it in every thread.

I know, you're tired of the TRUTH.  I get that.  But who are these so-called "we" types?  I haven't seen any pushback other than you.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said:

The resurrection of all believers isn't even close to "the end".

It isn't.  It will be followed by 7 years of tribulation, then the earthly return of Christ, His 1,000 year reign as king of the world, then the final judgment, the arrival of the New Jerusalem and the destruction of the universe as we know it. 

The Bible clearly teaches that there will a singular resurrection of the saved and a singular resurrection of the unsaved.  Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15.  Do you want to argue against the Bible?

And 1 Cor 15:23 couldn't be any more clear:  But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Now, for clarity:

1.  red words refer to Christ being the FIRST human to receive a glorified resurrection body.  Acts 26:23 affirms this:  that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

2.  blue words refer to the Second Advent, affirmed by Heb 9:28 - so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.  If this refers to a pre-trib event, then when He returns to earth at the end of the trib, that should be called the THIRD ADVENT.  But no one does, including your ilk.

3.  purple words refer to every saved person in human history.  That shouldn't need proof from any verse.  It is self evident.

So, if you disagree with any of these comments about 1 Cor 15:23, with the supporting verses, please address each point in error and explain why and how my points are in error. 

Thanks.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Yes, the destruction of the world is a direct result of man's sin.  Our eternal salvation depends on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.  Those who accept Him as Lord will be saved.  Those who do not will perish.

You give way too much "power" to sin.  It was God's plan all along, and since it's all in God's plan, that includes the destruction of the present earth and the new earth in Rev 21.  The rest of your paragraph is correct.