Reformed Restriction

[Anne2]

5 minutes ago, AFlameOfFire said:

Marilyn C, 

Hey Sis, let me ask you about just that verse, because I have seen some Christians  using the reaction of the Jews as some sort of validation that that was what Jesus meant by that one more specifically.  

For example when he said, 

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

We are often told that the Jews took Jesus saying, that "I and my Father are one" there as Jesus was claiming to be God "in that oneness" with the Father and even some Christians point at the Jews reaction and use that very specifically to actually validate what I am catching as an error when they say, "We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to know that Jesus statement was exactly to that effect (or whatever effect) and so it is true that He was claiming  "to be God" there.  But if Jesus was claiming to be God in saying "I and the Father are one" why would Jesus pray to the Father, "that they too may be one,  in John 17:11 " EVEN AS we are one?

Wouldn't that make them God then by that same faulty reasoning?

That's why that never made sense to me, and of course that is followed up by

John 17:22 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me..

Know what I am mean with that there?

I am making supper while posting here, so I hope I put that out right, I can be pretty bad at multitasking, God forbid it that I miss something on this topic, all hellfire might just break out against anyone who does that haha.

God's richest blessings Sis

 

Good question. Thanks for asking...I am curious to hear Marilyns answer to this. 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

9 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

Good question. Thanks for asking...I am curious to hear Marilyns answer to this. 

I missed your post Anne2, I thought I caught mine before anyone posted and you did on this page, I reworded that post again, I hope its a little clearer, but I am glad you captured it in case the first one is understood a little better.

I am not good at wording things in my own words

 

[Anne2]

1 minute ago, AFlameOfFire said:

I missed your post Anne2, I thought I caught mine before anyone posted and you did on this page, I reworded that post again, I hope its a little clearer, but I am glad you captured it in case the first one is understood a little better.

I am not good at wording things in my own words

 

I do understand. I have issues with that myself, and it has gotten me in trouble before. Sometimes I can do a fabulous job but there are times I have a real hard time with that. I am glad you were able to make it clear. 

[Michael37]

4 minutes ago, AFlameOfFire said:

I missed your post Anne2, I thought I caught mine before anyone posted and you did on this page, I reworded that post again, I hope its a little clearer, but I am glad you captured it in case the first one is understood a little better.

I am not good at wording things in my own words

 

While you are waiting for Marilyn, allow me if you will, to shed some light on these verses:

Joh 17:20-23  I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message,  (21)  that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.  (22)  I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—  (23)  I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me.
 

Our Lord is petitioning:

# That all those who will believe in Christ may be one: Paul later elaborates on this state by using the metaphor of a body made of many parts having different functions whilst being part of the whole. 

# That the Oneness of Christ and the Father be an example for the body of believers in Christ: that such unity would be found among believers.

# That the believers' union with Him, and His Union with the Father be an example to the world of the love of the Father for His People, and for His Son whom He has sent to them. 

The key word is RELATIONSHIP. As the Father and the Son are in perfect relationship, so believers in relationship with Him are to be in relationship one with another. The ELEVATION of the believer that comes with that is dependent upon being in right relationship.

[Anne2]

11 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

While you are waiting for Marilyn, allow me if you will, to shed some light on these verses:

Joh 17:20-23  I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message,  (21)  that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.  (22)  I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—  (23)  I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me.
 

Our Lord is petitioning:

# That all those who will believe in Christ may be one: Paul later elaborates on this state by using the metaphor of a body made of many parts having different functions whilst being part of the whole. 

# That the Oneness of Christ and the Father be an example for the body of believers in Christ: that such unity would be found among believers.

# That the believers' union with Him, and His Union with the Father be an example to the world of the love of the Father for His People, and for His Son whom He has sent to them. 

The key word is RELATIONSHIP. As the Father and the Son are in perfect relationship, so believers in relationship with Him are to be in relationship one with another. The ELEVATION of the believer that comes with that is dependent upon being in right relationship.

Sorry this is so long but I think it is relevant.

It says he has given them glory, so that others will believe.

What of his works?

Joh 14:11  Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
Joh 14:12  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Ps 82:6  I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Isa 41:23  Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.
Joh 10:34  Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Ac 2:22  Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Ac 6:8  And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
Ac 8:6  And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

The body of believers

4  Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5  And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6  And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7  But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8  For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9  To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11  But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

32 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

While you are waiting for Marilyn, allow me if you will, to shed some light on these verses:

Joh 17:20-23  I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message,  (21)  that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.  (22)  I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—  (23)  I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me.
 

Our Lord is petitioning:

# That all those who will believe in Christ may be one: Paul later elaborates on this state by using the metaphor of a body made of many parts having different functions whilst being part of the whole. 

# That the Oneness of Christ and the Father be an example for the body of believers in Christ: that such unity would be found among believers.

# That the believers' union with Him, and His Union with the Father be an example to the world of the love of the Father for His People, and for His Son whom He has sent to them. 

The key word is RELATIONSHIP. As the Father and the Son are in perfect relationship, so believers in relationship with Him are to be in relationship one with another. The ELEVATION of the believer that comes with that is dependent upon being in right relationship.

Yes I do realize this Michael37, and what I disagree with is the assessment that we should ever look at the reaction of the Jews who handed Jesus over to be crucified to validate our assumptions concerning what Jesus was saying was exactly what they concluded he was saying. And then going off trying to make those assumptions (some might agree with) fit. After all, " False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge things that I knew not". And in hearing they "hear not" in most of the situations. There are a couple of other places I disagree with that are often used to "pad the idea" concerning Christ that never really took off with me as being true (the way they might present it). 

For example, earlier in the thread with Marilyn C, I used a verse to pad the husband and wife analogy between Christ and the church, that was used for my argument and when Marilyn C pointed out that one specific verse is not using the word marry between them in the way I trying to show it. I come back and I agreed with her  assessment and told her that I would have to remove referencing that part of scripture to support that argument. Because for me it needs to "seal the deal" and not leave any lingering question. Surely that does that not  mean that all those other scriptures become irrelevant to the point, of course not but that one verse needs to be removed from my arsenal in trying to make the argument. 

 

 

 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

2 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

Sorry this is so long but I think it is relevant.

It says he has given them glory, so that others will believe.

What of his works?

Joh 14:11  Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
Joh 14:12  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Ps 82:6  I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Isa 41:23  Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.
Joh 10:34  Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Ac 2:22  Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Ac 6:8  And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
Ac 8:6  And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

The body of believers

4  Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5  And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6  And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7  But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8  For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9  To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11  But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
 

That's the other one, I hope I can find that argument, because he doesn't use Psalm 45 (concerning himself as the Son of God being called God equally) but he uses what was written in their law in Psalm 82 concerning "the children of God" (plural) "ye are gods" according to their own accusations, and so according to what is written how can they say that he blasphemes because he said he was the Son of God while they accuse him of what is equal when the same is equally written which pertains to the children of the most high as he points out.

Little slippery things, accusations, I like where Jesus points them to, but also notice  where he does not point them to (concerning himself) like Psalm 45 which you would think would make the better case but he doesn't

And I typically use the KJV but I think the NIV has this more correct 

Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature a God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage.

Because he really didn't try to use that to his own advantage in that. 

 

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, AFlameOfFire said:

Marilyn C, 

Hey Sis, let me ask you about just that verse, because I have seen some Christians  using the reaction of the Jews as some sort of validation that that was what Jesus meant by that one more specifically.  

For example when he said, 

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

We are often told that the Jews took Jesus saying, that "I and my Father are one" there as Jesus was claiming to be God "in that oneness" with the Father. Some Christians point at the Jews reaction and use that (very specifically) to actually validate what I am catching as an error (on Christians part) when they say, "We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to know that Jesus statement was exactly to that effect (or whatever other effect elsewhere) and so it must be true that He was claiming  "to be God" there.  But if Jesus was really claiming to be God in saying "I and the Father are one" (as they might say it) why would Jesus pray to the Father, "that they too may be one,  in John 17:11 " EVEN AS we are one?

Wouldn't that make them God then by that same faulty reasoning?

That's why that never made sense to me, and of course that is followed up by

John 17:22 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me..

Know what I am mean with that there?

I am making supper while posting here, so I hope I put that out right, I can be pretty bad at multitasking, God forbid it that I miss something on this topic, all hellfire might just break out against anyone who does that haha.

God's richest blessings Sis

 

Hi FOF,

Mmmm I thought I smelt something delicious.  Been out for a walk & just read you great question. 

I looked up a number of Greek words for `one,` and there is `one` meaning the numeral, another the position, first, and then a different word for oneself, and then plural for one another etc. So lots of meanings for the word `one.` 

So my thoughts based on what I read in God`s word are -

1. Jesus and the Father (& Holy Spirit) are one in unity, equality, and of the same mind, they are the Godhead, (all that I wrote previously).

2. Now for us being `one.` Jesus does equate that with Him and the Father which is astounding but not meaning everything about `God.` Let me explain.

Annie quoted 1 Cor. 12: 4 - 11 which is good, so let`s go further.

`But now God has `set` the members, each one of them, in the body as He pleased.` (1 Cor. 12: 18)

That reveals we are actually `set,` spiritually connected that no one can pull apart, joined & knit together with other members we relate to as specific disciples, (not just pew warmers). 

`Christ - from whom the whole body, JOINED AND KNIT TOGETHER by what every joint supplies...` (Eph. 4: 16)

`...the head (Christ) from whom all the body, nourished and KNIT TOGETHER by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.` (Col. 2: 19)

That is the context for we always need to read other scriptures on a topic and not just what we think of immediately. When we read of other scriptures of the Godhead we know that they are omnipotent, (all powerful), omnipresent, (everywhere by the Holy Spirit), omniscient, (all knowing). Obviously we will never be any or all of those.

Summing up Jesus was referring to an undissolverble union.

 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

2 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi FOF,

Mmmm I thought I smelt something delicious.  Been out for a walk & just read you great question. 

I looked up a number of Greek words for `one,` and there is `one` meaning the numeral, another the position, first, and then a different word for oneself, and then plural for one another etc. So lots of meanings for the word `one.` 

So my thoughts based on what I read in God`s word are -

1. Jesus and the Father (& Holy Spirit) are one in unity, equality, and of the same mind, they are the Godhead, (all that I wrote previously).

2. Now for us being `one.` Jesus does equate that with Him and the Father which is astounding but not meaning everything about `God.` Let me explain.

Annie quoted 1 Cor. 12: 4 - 11 which is good, so let`s go further.

`But now God has `set` the members, each one of them, in the body as He pleased.` (1 Cor. 12: 18)

That reveals we are actually `set,` spiritually connected that no one can pull apart, joined & knit together with other members we relate to as specific disciples, (not just pew warmers). 

`Christ - from whom the whole body, JOINED AND KNIT TOGETHER by what every joint supplies...` (Eph. 4: 16)

`...the head (Christ) from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.` (Col. 2: 19)

That is the context for we always need to read other scriptures on a topic and not just what we think of immediately. When we read of other scriptures of the Godhead we know that they are omnipotent, (all powerful), omnipresent, (everywhere by the Holy Spirit), omniscient, (all knowing). Obviously we will never be any or all of those.

Summing up Jesus was referring to an undisolverble union.

 

I would go back to the Hebrew Jesus even quotes from it using the word one (carried into the Greek) because they carry over LORD and make that the same as Lord in the Greek whenever you look up the word, but when you take it back to the Hebrew it becomes clear (the distinctions) 

The word one in the OT shows two becoming one flesh is the same. You have two persons (as you would have a husband and a wife) but they are one

[Marilyn C]

6 minutes ago, AFlameOfFire said:

I would go back to the Hebrew Jesus even quotes from it using the word one (carried into the Greek) because they carry over LORD and make that the same as Lord in the Greek whenever you look up the word, but when you take it back to the Hebrew it becomes clear (the distinctions) 

The word one in the OT shows two becoming one flesh is the same. You have two persons (as you would have a husband and a wife) but they are one

Yes, the two here on earth in the physical are connected souls. However, for Christ and His Body it is a spiritual connection, much deeper and eternal. 

Christ the HEAD, connected, to His body - the NEW MAN. Male head, male body.

And that `new man` has a full character of male & female characteristics as was in the beginning before Eve was taken out of Adam as it were.