BODY AND SOUL AND SPIRIT

[Paleouss]

18 hours ago, enoob57 said:

I find this quite affirming toward all this

John 20:22 (KJV)

[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Greetings enoob57.  Thank you for responding to my post.  I hope your Sunday is a blessed one.

Its a good verse, amen!

I'm assuming you are taking the position of the person I was opposite of.  So the question here is whether the "spirit of life" (Gen 2:7) is the same thing as the "Holy Ghost" (John 20:22).  The verse you have given supports that the Holy Ghost is given (or breathed).  I concede this.  But is this Holy Ghost also the "spirit of life" that was "breathed" in Genesis 2:7?

In the other post in which I was responding the suggestion was that the "spirit of life" (Gen 2:7) that was "breathed" was the Holy Ghost and was 'removed' from mankind, that is taken back, when Adam sinned.  But this appears clearly false.  For Adam's "spirit of life" in Gen 2:7 is a spirit that gives man "life".

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(Job 33:4 NKJV) 4 The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Here in Job 33, we are told that the "Spirit of God" has "made" mankind.  So the Holy Ghost, the third person of the Trinity, most certainly was present at the making of Adam.  However, the "Spirit of God" made Adam and the "breath of the Almighty" was what gives him life.  Appears to be two different things here.

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(Job 12:10 NKJV) 10 In whose hand [is] the life of every living thing, And the breath of all mankind?

In Job 12:10, we are told that the "breath" gives life to "every living thing" and is in "all mankind".  If this is so, then if whatever was breathed into Adam at his creation did give him life...then if it were removed then it follows that mankind would instantly die.  For the "spirit of life" gives life and is in all mankind.  Thus, it is not the same as the Holy Ghost of John 20:22.  However, the Holy Ghost does give "life", that of the rebirth kind though.

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(Heb 4:12 NKJV) 12 For the word of God [is] living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

To me Heb 4:12 can generate a totally different topic, if sidetracked.  But in regard to our discussion, Heb 4:12 says that the word of God divides even the "soul" and "spirit".  If mankind did not still have the "spirit of life" (Get 2:7) then the word couldn't not "divide" anything.  For there would be no "spirit" to divide from the "soul".  Thus, the "breath of life" is not the Holy Ghost.  For every man has this spirit in which her 4:12 is referencing.

Running late for church.  Pardon the exit and lack of proof reading.

Peace to you brother. 

[enoob57]

8 hours ago, Paleouss said:

Peace to you brother. 

I found it interesting that you left this off my quote
 

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I certainly don't think there is enough for dogmatism on any of this!

as I believe this about the subject leaves me out for further word wrangling...

[Paleouss]

On 1/12/2025 at 2:22 PM, jeremiah1five said:

The makeup of man at creation was a trichotomy of body, soul, and human spirit.

Greetings Jeremiah.  Blessings to you and yours.

I would agree with you by saying that man is 'one whole' that can be logically and biblically divided into a trichotomy (1) the body (2) the breath of life (spirit) (3) the soul that became.

My view is articulated in an academia.org essay..

            Is it a Trichotomy or a Dichotomy?
                    The Answer is, Yes
A Biblical Representation of the Composition of Mankind

Peace to you brother

[Yokefellow]

Hello everyone. This topic interested me, so I signed up.

I will post some thoughts when I have time.

[Paleouss]

Greetings and blessings to all.  I was in a rush the other day when I posted and I wanted to present an additional verse in the debate on whether the "breath of life" (Gen 2:7) is the same as the "Holy Ghost".  Specifically the assertion that when Adam sinned this "breath of life" was removed or went back to God.  In this theological construct it is assumed that the "breath of life (spirit of life) is the one and same "Holy Ghost" (third person of the Trinity).

The verse I didn't present was..
(Job 34:14-15 NKJV) ...[If] He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath, 15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.

So we see in Job 34 that if this "breath of life" was removed or "taken back" then "man would return to dust" (Job 34:15).  Since after Adam's sin, he did not die physically then this "breath of life" was not removed or taken back.  Because Job 34 says that if it was, then Adam would have returned to dust.

Therefore the "breath of life" (Gen 2:7) is not the same things as the "Holy Ghost" (Third person of the Trinity).  

Peace and Love to all my brothers in Christ

[Yokefellow]

4 hours ago, Paleouss said:

Since after Adam's sin, he did not die physically...

That is debatable.

[Yokefellow]

On 11/4/2023 at 5:21 PM, jeremiah1five said:

He didn't die body-wise for he lived 930 years and had children.

That too is debatable.

[Yokefellow]

On 11/4/2023 at 5:21 PM, jeremiah1five said:

His human spirit died. He remained body and soul - no human spirit.

The Bible teaches no such thing.

[Yokefellow]

I believe the creation of the First Adam in Genesis was done in a more 'ethereal' world. In other words, the prelapsarian universe that existed was not 'fallen' and therefore not 'physical' as we understand it now. Therefore, the creation of a physical body was not even possible.

With that in mind, I will go over a few key phrases in this verse..

Genesis 2:7 - "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

We must not assume anything. I am a firm believer in Scripture interprets Scripture. What exactly is the 'dust of the ground'? Is it dirt or clay? No. That is a false assumption. The answer is found in many places...

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

When a living organism dies, it rots and eventually turns into organic matter. Some would call it 'fertilizer' and 'worm food'. Nitrogen is a good fertilizer BTW. Surely the organic matter left over contains DNA, which brings us to the next set of verses...

Genesis 13:16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

Genesis 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

We can see that Scripture is associating 'dust of the earth' with 'seed'. Seed is DNA as well as the Word of God...

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Just as Genesis teaches, a living organism returns to Nitrogen Bases where it started, i.e., the 'dust' of the earth.

In summary, God created a Genome (i.e., Soul) from the Nitrogen Bases of the ground. God did not create a physical body. That would come much later. Moreover, we discover that a Genome is what a Soul is according to the Bible.

God then breathed the First Adam's Spirit into said Genome and animated it. Now he is a Living Soul.

Soul + Spirit = Living Soul.

Again, no physical body existed yet.

Edited January 29 by Yokefellow

[Charlie744]

On 1/25/2025 at 9:35 AM, Paleouss said:

Greetings Charlie744,  I hope your weekend is a good one.  I was reading this thread and thought it was interesting.

I somewhat agree with your analysis.  Before I start, I would like to state that I believe mankind, which is one whole, can be biblically and logically divided into an inner and outer self (2Cor 4:16).  Further, I think that mankind's inner self can be biblically and logically divided into a spirit and soul.  So we start with similar general conclusions.

However,  There a some key points where we may differ.  It would seem.

God (1) took (a) dust and (2) formed it.  Therefore, the first step is to create the form of the man.  This form can be properly said to be the "outer self" (2Cor 4:16).  This form was not alive nor was it a soul at this point.

Then God "breathed" the "breath of life" "into" the form.  This term "breathed" suggests 'to expel from' or to 'come from'.  The term "into" suggests 'to permeate within and around'.  And what was breathed?  The breath of life.  This "breath" means "spirit" or 'spirit of life'.  Here we do not agree because you call the breath of life the "Holy Spirit".  The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity and is the "helper" (John 14:26) that is sent by Christ from the Father.  They are not the same thing.

And then, and only then, "man became a living creature" (nep̄eš - or living soul).  So mankind is A(dust and otherness) + B(spirit and life), and through the creative act of combining the two... a soul emerges.  I say a soul emerges because A and B are still present.  So we have and outer self, the body, and an inner self composed, meaning a logical whole, of the spirit and soul.   

I would have to make a distinction here.  First, the breath of life is not the Holy Spirit but the spirit of life.  These two are different.  So if the spirit of life was removed from man then he would die, immediately, since what has been removed was "life", for it is the "spirit of life".

It was “the breath of the Almighty [that] gives him life” (Job 33:4, Gen 1:27). And the breath of life, the breath being of spirit, is now the spirit of man (Job 32:8, Zech 12:1) that once was and is the breath of life from God (Job 12:10, 33:4). But this life is now distinctively man’s life that is bound up in oneness with both the outer and the inner self.

Peace to you brother

Keep seeking God's wisdom as if it were hidden treasure

Thanks for your thoughts! I believe I may not have been too clear in my statement but let me try and clear things up from my point of view

1) the only material God needed or used was the earth or dust... From this He created Adam. 

2) God breathed into Adam, NOT the Holy Spirit because that is the 3rd part of the Trinity - Himself. No, He breathed into Adam His Holiness, His spirit, which can only be found within Him. We can all understand what God means when He tells us He is omniscient, or omnipresent, or all merciful, etc. But no one understands what it truly means to be "Holy." There is absolutely nothing in the world that is "Holy" except for God. We might think we understand what it means but we don't. Something pure and holy is beyond our understanding no matter how much we give it our opinions and thoughts. 

 

But it is this "holiness" that was breathed into Adam - He was made in His image which would include HIs "Holiness." And to take a side track, I believe this is / maybe the reason why Satan went against God and meant to destroy Adam - Satan, the most powerful, brilliant, etc., angel ever created by God -  but he was still void of having any of God's "Holiness" within him. But he knew he could bring Adam down should he get him to disobey God - even once.

So Adam is now a "living soul." This does not mean he has multiple parts and can be pulled apart and discussed separately. It means he is simply now a "living soul" that has God's holiness within him. 

Adam would have a body, a mind, a conscience, self awareness, etc., just as he would have had God not breathed "His holiness" into him. But He did.

After Adam sinned, it was necessary for God to take back the "breathed in holiness" that came from God, and could only come from God. Adam or mankind does not have any "holiness" within them apart from what God gave him. Only God has this "holiness" to give, but after Adam sinned, His holiness and sin could not be in the same place together. God would take back the "holiness" He gave or breathed into Adam. It was His to give and now He would have to take it back. 

Adam did not die when God's holiness was taken from him... but now Adam would no longer be a "living soul." That definition only belongs to man when he is given God's holiness within him. Now, Adam is a "living being" - without God's holiness within him. He will now get old, feel pain, cold, etc., and die. Nothing of him will continue on - the body, this living "being" is gone and returns to the dust.

But God would immediately begin His plan of salvation for mankind so that whosoever believed in Jesus would be resurrected at the end of time and God would once again breathe His holiness into us...  Now, we are once again able to be in His presence. For those who rejected Christ, they too will be resurrected, but God will not breath His holiness into them and as a result, they will be destroyed by His presence.

So, I agree with you that God did not breathe THE Holy Spirit into Adam, but He did breathe His "holiness" into him.

This did not change the number of parts of Adam... He was exactly the same as he was but without God's holiness in him. No 3 part being, just a complete human being with a body, mind, conscience, self awareness, etc. He does not have a soul - he was a living soul and now is a living being.

Hope this helps and thanks for your thoughts.