BODY AND SOUL AND SPIRIT

[jeremiah1five]

30 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

I think the problem we have in 'Breath of Life' not being the Holy Spirit is basic tenants of creation... Before creation only God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit existed in 'Spirit'... so to be in His image we must have what exactly? We have the created breath in all else but in Adam to be imaged after God ... this is the question to confront oneself in this study...

Adam is not the image of God, Christ is.

There is no better image of a Father than a Son.

I believe God looked forward and even when man was created to the new man to be created in God's image. We are, after all, being conformed into the image of Christ, not Adam.

Adam was created from the dust of the ground; Christ is the Lord from heaven. Adam is natural, of the earth, earthy; Christ is the Lord from heaven.

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  Col 1:13–15.

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,  Heb 1:2–3.

 

 

 

[Progressive Truth]

On 1/24/2024 at 9:07 PM, Charlie744 said:

In any event, I believe there is only 2 parts of the created man. In Genesis 2:7, God created man by combining the dust / dirt from the earth and then He breathed into it HIS SPIRIT- it was not meant as to breathe air (literal air) into the formed dust / dirt to activate it, but to breathe HIS SPIRIT into it. Thus, He created man in HIS IMAGE. It is a 2 part combination of A (earth) + B (HIS HOLY SPIRIT) = C (a soul). God created a “SOUL.”

I agree with you it takes two elements to make up the soul, however, Gen. 2:7 says, that God breathed into his nostrils "the breath of life." and man became a living soul. It did not say the Holy Spirit. Too, you don't seem to realize that when the two elements/parts are separated then the soul must cease to exist, the body returns to dust/or grave and the breath of life returns to our creator. This is the first death/sleep, and applies to all of mankind, lost or saved. The soul does not go to heaven, purgatory, or hell, it simply ceases to exist until God unites the two elements in either the first or second resurrection. This understanding does away with the lie that Satan told Eve," surely you will not die." It also does away with the belief that God calls your young child or spouse, mother or dad, to be with Him in heaven while you suffer through your grief and life without them. 

Too, based on your reasoning then, when each individual chooses to reject the Holy Spirit influence as the unrighteous do, then that would cause their first death. Have you ever heard of anyone dying because they rejected the Holy Spirit?

On 1/24/2024 at 9:07 PM, Charlie744 said:

 

Adam had be removed from the Garden (HIS) or he would immediately die. He was sent out of the Garden to live, but he was no longer a “living soul.” He was now a “living being” WITHOUT HIS holiness within him. 
 

First Adam and Eve should have been executed by God the day they sinned, because God had told them, in the day you eat of the tree of good and evil, you shall surely die. The reason they were not is because Jesus stepped in to stay their execution by excepting the terms and conditions of the plan of Salvation the Father had in place before any life was created, because the Father foreknew of Adams fall. It was on that day that Jesus became the Son of God the Father, which means He would be submissive to all the requirements in the plan of salvation to save man. Therefore, they were spared execution. However, God couldn't allow them too continue living in the garden either, because of their now fallen natures, they would have access to the tree of life, and life forever. So God sent them out of the garden and away from the tree of life, and stationed angles with flaming swords to guard its entrance.

They both remained living souls, as they still possessed the same two elements that made them into living souls in first place, and died the first death of old age, which is the consequences of sin.  Yes one can say they are living beings as that's what a living soul is, however, they did not become living beings simply because you assume they turned away from the Holy Spirit. They continued in communion with God by way of the Holy Spirit and grew to trust God completely and are still sleeping in death peacefully awaiting Jesus call to arise. 

 

 

 

[Charlie744]

3 hours ago, Progressive Truth said:

I agree with you it takes two elements to make up the soul, however, Gen. 2:7 says, that God breathed into his nostrils "the breath of life." and man became a living soul. It did not say the Holy Spirit.

 

When Adam sinned, what was removed or taken away? It was not his breath or air - he continued to breathe. What had to be taken from him is the one thing that separated man from the animals God created… He breathed His Holy Spirit into Adam. 

3 hours ago, Progressive Truth said:

Too, you don't seem to realize that when the two elements/parts are separated then the soul must cease to exist, the body returns to dust/or grave and the breath of life returns to our creator.

No, I don’t believe I missed that … I specifically mentioned that once Adam sinned, God’s spirit had to return to Him. It was Gods to give and take away. Now, Adam was no longer a living SOUL, but a living BEING - devoid of God’s righteousness or holiness within him. 

So, after the fall, when Adam died, he will return to the ground. He stops breathing air and dies. That is it. Nothing else happens—- there is no other part of Adam to move on after death. 
He will simply have to wait until the resurrection when God will either put His Holy Spirit back into him or he will be destroyed forever. 

3 hours ago, Progressive Truth said:

 

This is the first death/sleep, and applies to all of mankind, lost or saved. The soul does not go to heaven, purgatory, or hell, it simply ceases to exist until God unites the two elements in either the first or second resurrection.

Yes, I am fairly sure I said this. 

3 hours ago, Progressive Truth said:

This understanding does away with the lie that Satan told Eve," surely you will not die." It also does away with the belief that God calls your young child or spouse, mother or dad, to be with Him in heaven while you suffer through your grief and life without them. 

Yes. 

3 hours ago, Progressive Truth said:

Too, based on your reasoning then, when each individual chooses to reject the Holy Spirit influence as the unrighteous do, then that would cause their first death. Have you ever heard of anyone dying because they rejected the Holy Spirit?

Well, I don’t think they cause their first death. The first death applies to EVERY LIVING BEING (believer or not).

However, it is before this FIRST DEATH that one will determine if there is going to be a second death. 
 

3 hours ago, Progressive Truth said:

First Adam and Eve should have been executed by God the day they sinned, because God had told them, in the day you eat of the tree of good and evil, you shall surely die. The reason they were not is because Jesus stepped in to stay their execution by excepting the terms and conditions of the plan of Salvation the Father had in place before any life was created, because the Father foreknew of Adams fall. It was on that day that Jesus became the Son of God the Father, which means He would be submissive to all the requirements in the plan of salvation to save man. Therefore, they were spared execution. However, God couldn't allow them too continue living in the garden either, because of their now fallen natures, they would have access to the tree of life, and life forever. So God sent them out of the garden and away from the tree of life, and stationed angles with flaming swords to guard its entrance.

Yes. 

3 hours ago, Progressive Truth said:

They both remained living souls, as they still possessed the same two elements that made them into living souls in first place, and died the first death of old age, which is the consequences of sin. 
 

No, once they sinned, God’s Holy Spirit departed from within Adam and had to return to the Lord. He, like ALL mankind that were born outside the Garden would be a living being ONLY. They would have no ability to restore God’s Holy Spirit within themselves. Only God has it to give… and no amount of “works” can restore this. 

3 hours ago, Progressive Truth said:

Yes one can say they are living beings as that's what a living soul is, however, they did not become living beings simply because you assume they turned away from the Holy Spirit. They continued in communion with God by way of the Holy Spirit and grew to trust God completely and are still sleeping in death peacefully awaiting Jesus call to arise. 

 

God’s plan of salvation is to once again restore His Holy Spirit back into us. He will only do that for those that have placed their faith and trust in Him and accept His sacrifice on the cross. That is it. 
Just as He told Moses, you can not see my face and live! The ONLY way to see Him and survive is through the cross… He will clothed us in His righteousness once again and we will see Him clearly. 

[Progressive Truth]

22 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

No, once they sinned, God’s Holy Spirit departed from within Adam and had to return to the Lord. He, like ALL mankind that were born outside the Garden would be a living being ONLY. They would have no ability to restore God’s Holy Spirit within themselves. Only God has it to give… and no amount of “works” can restore this. 

Would have to disagree with your reasoning here. First the third person of the God head the Holy Spirit is invisible and can be all places at once, and can read our thoughts. He is the link between us and Jesus in heaven. He is always willing to abide with us if we desire to abide with Him. 

Jesus bids us to, come to him, and whosoever will may come. You make it sound like we must wait on God to come to us. 

By way of your book offer, I assume your SDA. Your teaching on this subject is not in  line with what we teach. (??)

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Progressive Truth said:

Would have to disagree with your reasoning here. First the third person of the God head the Holy Spirit is invisible and can be all places at once, and can read our thoughts. He is the link between us and Jesus in heaven. He is always willing to abide with us if we desire to abide with Him. 

Jesus bids us to, come to him, and whosoever will may come. You make it sound like we must wait on God to come to us. 

By way of your book offer, I assume your SDA. Your teaching on this subject is not in  line with what we teach. (??)

Totally agree with you but the key to this is that "we must be willing to accept Jesus as our Messiah and allow the Holy Spirit into our lives." Without that conscience decision, we have no hope of being with God.

For your second comment: No, I am not an SDA... but I can assure you that since I have provided a copy of this commentary to friends of mine that are SDA - since their childhood, have LITERALLY shunned me. They will not have anything to do with me anymore - apparently, my interpretations on the 2300 days, the time, times, and 1/2 time, the 1290 and 1335 days prophecies and a few others have, by departing from their interpretations, are an attempt to corrupt thier denomination.

When I lived in Pennsylvaniz (almost all of my life), I was aware of the Mennonite and Amish communities in Lancaster county - not too far away. And I had heard of their "shunning" of their members, even those within their immediate family. But it is one thing to hear of it, another to be shunned. So, I do not get a chance to speak with any of them anymore. 

 

[Progressive Truth]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

I have provided a copy of this commentary 

What are you talking about?  

If it is contrary to Adventists teaching how are you able to leave it inside of SDA churches?

[Charlie744]

7 hours ago, Progressive Truth said:

What are you talking about?  

If it is contrary to Adventists teaching how are you able to leave it inside of SDA churches?

I never said that! I said I provided a copy to FRIENDS of mine who are SDA members… THEY will no longer speak with me.  I never had any desire to try and change their church beliefs… If I gave a copy to 100 Catholics, I guarantee I would receive the same kind of response or worse. 
 

In any event, these nice folks were always telling me they believe they have the right interpretation of the Book of Daniel, AND, they are always open to new interpretations and ideas. 
 

Well, that certainly didn’t prove true. They have absolutely no tolerance for any other interpretation than what they have already committed to print. 
 

 

 

[Progressive Truth]

9 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I never said that! I said I provided a copy to FRIENDS of mine who are SDA members… THEY will no longer speak with me.  I never had any desire to try and change their church beliefs… If I gave a copy to 100 Catholics, I guarantee I would receive the same kind of response or worse. 
 

In any event, these nice folks were always telling me they believe they have the right interpretation of the Book of Daniel, AND, they are always open to new interpretations and ideas. 
 

Well, that certainly didn’t prove true. They have absolutely no tolerance for any other interpretation than what they have already committed to print. 
 

 

 

Charlie, I too feel inspired to share progressive truth. I'll share a post I just posted on an Adventist forum.

My question is how can it be that SDA members can openly repudiate the Doctrine of the Trinity and that's passable / permissible and you can't hold different ideas on The Last Things?  I'm looking for the nexus that explains this. 

Gustave, I can't speak to the issue of the Trinity, for I find it hard to imagine an Adventist not believing that Jesus is deity, however, closing events is something I can speak to. In my situation I haven't been able to just keep what I believe is the correct interpretation of apocalyptic prophecy to myself, but rather feel it is my obligation to share what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me by of studying material out side of our own publications. 

I often have done this by presenting these materials to pastors and laity both.. in various churches as I have moved around the country in the past forty years. The response is either silence, which conveys to me the leadership or laity choses not to consider anything being different because they assume it to be wrong. The other response is to issue me an ultimatum too desist passing out books promoting any interpretation that is different than what we have sanctioned since the Great Controversy was written by E.G. White in 1888. The issue here is, If we were to update out interpretation we would have to admit that Mrs.White was wrong in claiming that many of the prophecies were fulfilled in the past, which they were not. We are not willing to admit that prophets do make mistakes if they speak and reason outside of inspiration. Here in lies the issue from my perspective.

We like those anticipating the pre-trib rapture, were all in the same boat. So when closing events materialize differently than what we assume, our faith will be shattered just like it was during the "Great Disappointment" of 1844. 

Truth is progressive and additive, but religions seldom move from their foundational teachings. This is a historical fact. The good news is prophecy reveals God will leap frog all religions and select 144,000 servant/prophets to carry the gospel to the whole world, then the end will come, right on time.

 

 

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[Progressive Truth]

9 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I never said that! I said I provided a copy to FRIENDS of mine who are SDA members… THEY will no longer speak with me.  I never had any desire to try and change their church beliefs… If I gave a copy to 100 Catholics, I guarantee I would receive the same kind of response or worse. 
 

In any event, these nice folks were always telling me they believe they have the right interpretation of the Book of Daniel, AND, they are always open to new interpretations and ideas. 
 

Well, that certainly didn’t prove true. They have absolutely no tolerance for any other interpretation than what they have already committed to print. 
 

 

 

My question is how can it be that SDA members can openly repudiate the Doctrine of the Trinity and that's passable / permissible and you can't hold different ideas on The Last Things?  I'm looking for the nexus that explains this. 

Gustave, I can't speak to the issue of the Trinity, for I find it hard to imagine an Adventist not believing that Jesus is deity, however, closing events is something I can speak to. In my situation I haven't been able to just keep what I believe is the correct interpretation of apocalyptic prophecy to myself, but rather feel it is my obligation to share what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me by of studying material out side of our own publications. 

I often have done this by presenting these materials to pastors and laity both.. in various churches as I have moved around the country in the past forty years. The response is either silence, which conveys to me the leadership or laity choses not to consider anything being different because they assume it to be wrong. The other response is to issue me an ultimatum too desist passing out books promoting any interpretation that is different than what we have sanctioned since the Great Controversy was written by E.G. White in 1888. The issue here is, If we were to update out interpretation we would have to admit that Mrs.White was wrong in claiming that many of the prophecies were fulfilled in the past, which they were not. We are not willing to admit that prophets do make mistakes if they speak and reason outside of inspiration. Here in lies the issue from my perspective.

We like those anticipating the pre-trib rapture, were all in the same boat. So when closing events materialize differently than what we assume, our faith will be shattered just like it was during the "Great Disappointment" of 1844. 

Truth is progressive and additive, but religions seldom move from their foundational teachings. This is a historical fact. The good news is prophecy reveals God will leap frog all religions and select 144,000 servant/prophets to carry the gospel to the whole world, then the end will come, right on time.

 

 

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[Charlie744]

43 minutes ago, Progressive Truth said:

My question is how can it be that SDA members can openly repudiate the Doctrine of the Trinity and that's passable / permissible and you can't hold different ideas on The Last Things?  I'm looking for the nexus that explains this. 

Gustave, I can't speak to the issue of the Trinity, for I find it hard to imagine an Adventist not believing that Jesus is deity, however, closing events is something I can speak to. In my situation I haven't been able to just keep what I believe is the correct interpretation of apocalyptic prophecy to myself, but rather feel it is my obligation to share what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me by of studying material out side of our own publications. 

I often have done this by presenting these materials to pastors and laity both.. in various churches as I have moved around the country in the past forty years. The response is either silence, which conveys to me the leadership or laity choses not to consider anything being different because they assume it to be wrong. The other response is to issue me an ultimatum too desist passing out books promoting any interpretation that is different than what we have sanctioned since the Great Controversy was written by E.G. White in 1888. The issue here is, If we were to update out interpretation we would have to admit that Mrs.White was wrong in claiming that many of the prophecies were fulfilled in the past, which they were not. We are not willing to admit that prophets do make mistakes if they speak and reason outside of inspiration. Here in lies the issue from my perspective.

We like those anticipating the pre-trib rapture, were all in the same boat. So when closing events materialize differently than what we assume, our faith will be shattered just like it was during the "Great Disappointment" of 1844. 

Truth is progressive and additive, but religions seldom move from their foundational teachings. This is a historical fact. The good news is prophecy reveals God will leap frog all religions and select 144,000 servant/prophets to carry the gospel to the whole world, then the end will come, right on time.

 

 

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Were you a member of the SDA at some point?