BODY AND SOUL AND SPIRIT

[BeyondET]

23 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

9:24f-Bring in everlasting righteousness

Everyone born after Adam (outside the Garden) is a living being, not a living soul. Consequently, we do not have His Spirit, His holiness, or His righteousness within us. Therefore, there is nothing that moves on after we die. Our body goes into the ground.

Depends on if someone donates their organs or not. Indeed your physical heart can move on and beat in another human being. Because when a person dies the body doesn't die automatically. It's a cascade of cells dying at different intervals some living on for weeks after the breath is gone.

[BeyondET]

The spirit of life can be donated to save a life.

Edited February 4 by BeyondET

[Paleouss]

On 2/2/2025 at 9:21 PM, Charlie744 said:

it encompasses being in right alignment with God's standards

Charlie, thank you for your presentation.  Your post is well thought out.  I do agree that the word "righteousness", to put it in my own words, is being in right standing with God (and all the ramifications of that).

Since I don't have any major objections to your overarching themes and conclusions, I'll just focus on the details that pertain to this thread.  That is the topic of body/soul/spirit.

On 2/2/2025 at 9:21 PM, Charlie744 said:

There are only two components that made Adam:

I totally agree.  The recipe has two ingredients.  

On 2/2/2025 at 9:21 PM, Charlie744 said:

dust from the ground and God breathing His Spirit into that dust. That was it. A+B=C

Here is where we disagree.  You want to claim, which many do, that C is simply adding A+B.  But I don't think this is the math in regard to the formula in Genesis 2:7.  C is not like putting sugar in a glass of water, in that all we have with "sugar water" (C) is the mixing of water (A) and sugar (B), (A+B=C).  A missing component in your illustration is the "creative act" of combining the two.  

This "creative act" is like, I think, the method used when creating a new element.  That is, the new element is the two ingredients, or two adams, along with the process by which they are combined (the creative act) in which a new element "emerges" or "becomes".  Just like Genesis 2:7 says that a living being "became".  What I'm saying is that Genesis 2:7 doesn't suggest we have "sugar water", it suggests we have a "new element" (mankind).  

Now, the disagreement we have on just what the formula says would be pointless if we didn't also have, to back up one formula, scripture that suggests to us that Genesis 2:7 is telling us that mankind is body/soul-spirit.  I will list those so this post doesn't get longer than it already is.

1. One God in three persons: Father, Son, Spirit.  We are created in His image and likeness (Gen 1:26-27) (an all the implication of this).

2. In Scripture, regarding God, the reference to "my soul" (nepes) as it relates to God is never used interchangeably with "my spirit" (ruah).  The specific use of soul for God is found in Lev 26:30, Gen 27:4, 34:3,49:6; Lev 26:11, 26:30; Isa 42:1; Jer 6:8.  These references to God and "my soul" always present God as personhood, that is, separate/distinct/other than creation.  Like, my soul and your soul.

 The use of "my spirit" (ruah) within the text when referring to God, only and always, imply relation to others in which Gods "spirit" is said to ‘pour out’ (Prov 1:23, Isa 44:3, Eze 39:29) , ‘put upon’ (Isa 42:1, 59:21), ‘pour upon’ (Eze 39:29), ‘put within’(Eze 36:27, 37:14), ‘abide in’ (Gen 6:3).  All are used when the biblical text refers to God saying ‘my spirit’.  We never see within the biblical text these terms, ‘put within’, ‘abide in’, ‘put upon’, ‘pour upon’ being used in conjunction with the phrase ‘my soul’ (Heb. nep̄ eš) as it pertains to God.  God is never said to pour his soul upon us.  Within the biblical text, my soul, when used to refer to God, is used as distinct personhood or separateness, and my spirit is used in reference to relations and communion with mankind. 

3.  Job 34:14 specifically says... [If] He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath, 15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.  This specific verse explicitly states that man would return to dust if the "spirit" (which is breath from Genesis 2:7) was taken or returned to God from mankind.  It seems a clear logical progression that if mankind didn't have a "spirit" then he would return to dust.  Therefore... man still has a "spirit" because all men have not returned to the dust (at least the current living ones).

4.  Job 33:4 explicitly states that the spirit (small 's' and translated "breath") gives man life.  That is, the spirit in man is what gives and keeps man alive.  This is also seen in Job 12:10.

5. Heb 4:12 tells us that the Spirit, to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart, divides the "soul and spirit".  This clearly suggests that mankind is spirit-soul.  I have much more on this verse but will refrain. :)

6. Zac 12:1 tells us that God "forms the spirit of man within him".  This word "forms" suggests that the inner man is not just (B) in your A+B, this verse is not talking about the body but what is "within him".  Thus, the inner man is "formed" not simply "given".  Meaning, it's not just A+B.

7. Prov 20:27 tells us that the "spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord".  So this verse tells us that man has a "spirit" and gives some insight into what it is used for.  Interestingly, this verse can be paired with Heb 4:12 and my point #2 above, that is, the spirit has to do with the relations to God.  We notice in many verses that want to communicate some kind of relation with God, the word "spirit" is used.  In the verses where the author wants to communicate personhood or mankind's perspective or ownership of their own personhood, the word "soul is used".  This nuance difference can be found in some of the following verses, Matt 6:25, Jam 2:26, 1Cor 6:20, Luke 1:46-47, Isa 26:9, Matt 10:28, Num 14:24.  

8. Job 32:8 explicitly states... "there is a spirit in man".

9.  Of course there is also the 1 Thes 5:23, "and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless" .

         --The spirit of man is the principal of life

         --The soul of man is the principal of personhood

10.  The tabernacle itself, the division of three, is a representation of body/spirit/soul.  This point could be long, so I'll just leave it at that. 

 

Anyway, there are to many verse, explicit verses, that suggest that mankind is a trichotomy for me to ignore.  This trichotomy would seem to not contradict your overall presentation, but it does contradict some of the details. 

Great conversation 

Peace and love to you, brother

[FreeGrace]

On 11/4/2023 at 7:21 PM, jeremiah1five said:

This was what Adam was created with.

A body housing a soul and having a human spirit (not the Holy Spirit.)

When Adam sinned, he died "in the day" he ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

He didn't die body-wise for he lived 930 years and had children.

He didn't die soul-fully for the soul is comprised of intellect, mind, emotions, senses, conscience and will.

His human spirit died. He remained body and soul - no human spirit. Everyone born from him is body and soul. It is only through being born again that God creates a new human spirit in the person and the person is restored to the tri-fold image of God.

It seems logical that while the human spirit died "on the day" Adam ate the fruit, it didn't just go away or disappear.  It is that humans are born with a living soul and body, but a dead human spirit.  

So, Adam was created trichotomous (in the image of the Triune God), but all humans are born dichotomous (soul and body alive, but dead spirit).  

The words "born AGAIN", "RE-generation" and "made alive" all point to the human spirit being given life again.  But not a "new" spirit, but rather, the dead spirit being made alive once again.  

So, because of this, all humans need to be born AGAIN, which is through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

On 11/4/2023 at 7:21 PM, jeremiah1five said:

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Eph 4:23–24.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor 5:17.

The unsaved who are never saved die body and soul and cast into "hell."

However, it is clear that the beast and his false prophet will have been in the lake of fire for 1,000 years BEFORE Satan will be.  Rev 20:10.  And "they" (beast, FP, Satan) "will be tormented day and night for ever and ever".  So we clearly know that 2 humans will be tormented for eternity.  Immediately following is about the Great White Throne Judgment, where ALL unbelievers will be judged, and then cast into the same LOF.  Why would they get less than the beast and FP?  Rather, they would get what all who have preceded them into the LOF got.

On 11/4/2023 at 7:21 PM, jeremiah1five said:

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mt 10:28.

Notice that the verse onlhy says that God "is able to destroy both soul and body in hell".  It doesn't say that He has ever or ever will do that.  There's a big difference.

The LOF is also called 'the second death'.  Since all unbelievers will be resurrected in order to appear before the GWT judgment (Dan 12:2, John 5:24, Acts 24:15) what dies twice will be their physical still mortal resurrected body.  The soul, like the souls of the beast and FP, will "be tormented day and night for ever and ever".

On 11/4/2023 at 7:21 PM, jeremiah1five said:

The human soul in conversion allows us to process spiritual phenomenon, even communicating with God who is Spirit.

The conversion refers to the NEW birth, or RE-generation of the human spirit when the person puts their trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross.

Believers are "new creatures" (2 Cor 5:17) precisely because of becoming trichotomous because of being born (spiritually) again.

The soul, as you accurately noted at the beginning of the OP, contains the intellect, emotions, conscience and will.  All of that will be 'tormented day and night for ever and ever'.  

If the soul ceases to exist, there will be no emotions or consciousness.  And that contradicts Scripture.

Matt 25:46 - Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

If the soul ceases to exist, there can be no 'eternal punishment' and Matt 25:46 cannot be true.  The word eternal/everlasting would have no meaning in such a case.

[jeremiah1five]

15 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

It seems logical that while the human spirit died "on the day" Adam ate the fruit, it didn't just go away or disappear.  It is that humans are born with a living soul and body, but a dead human spirit.  

That would make the person trichotomous still. Remaining like a hangnail. I would think it cease to exist, which in Eph. 4:24 it (human spirit) is created anew by God.

15 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

So, Adam was created trichotomous (in the image of the Triune God), but all humans are born dichotomous (soul and body alive, but dead spirit).  

The words "born AGAIN", "RE-generation" and "made alive" all point to the human spirit being given life again.  But not a "new" spirit, but rather, the dead spirit being made alive once again.  

Born-"AGAIN" of the Holy Spirit (spiritual) seems to me to be what in the original was a physical birth similarly now a spiritual birth, is it not? Physical birth consists of egg and sperm and same with spiritual birth - egg and sperm? (body/physical/egg=Jesus, and spirit/spirit/sperm=Spirit?) is confusing. I would prefer that in physical birth there is no human spirit passed in the genes of Adam and the woman for in death it ceases to exist? Which when one is born-again God creates a new human spirit (out of nothing-"bara") - Eph. 4:24? not "from something."

15 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

So, because of this, all humans need to be born AGAIN, which is through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

I hold faith is not a requirement of the person since "dead men have no faith" (Eph. 2:1) and faith is a gift of God (Eph. 2:8-9.)

15 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

However, it is clear that the beast and his false prophet will have been in the lake of fire for 1,000 years BEFORE Satan will be.  Rev 20:10.  And "they" (beast, FP, Satan) "will be tormented day and night for ever and ever".  So we clearly know that 2 humans will be tormented for eternity.  Immediately following is about the Great White Throne Judgment, where ALL unbelievers will be judged, and then cast into the same LOF.  Why would they get less than the beast and FP?  Rather, they would get what all who have preceded them into the LOF got.

I think the "torment" is not an act performed by one upon another, but just the reality of separation from God in which "torment" is the symptom of separation.

15 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Notice that the verse onlhy says that God "is able to destroy both soul and body in hell".  It doesn't say that He has ever or ever will do that.  There's a big difference.

"Hell" would be the grave so, yes, God HAS already destroyed body and soul in hell/grave. It is the result of sin and ordained by default by virtue of creation, which I hold that man (and woman) were created sinful or as the word is defined by Strong as "missing the mark" (think archery). What is that "mark" missed by default in their creation? The glory of God, or the glory that is God.

15 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The LOF is also called 'the second death'.  Since all unbelievers will be resurrected in order to appear before the GWT judgment (Dan 12:2, John 5:24, Acts 24:15) what dies twice will be their physical still mortal resurrected body.  The soul, like the souls of the beast and FP, will "be tormented day and night for ever and ever".

Again, I hold that any "torment" is not inflicted by one upon another, rather, that "torment" is what the soul experiences by virtue of being separate from God since Lazarus was "[in] comforted" and the rich man in "torment" by virtue of immediate separation from God in physical death.

15 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The conversion refers to the NEW birth, or RE-generation of the human spirit when the person puts their trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross.

Again, that would mean the existence of a "dead" spirit remaining like a hangnail or and instead of God creating anew (out of nothing) to be a human spirit created anew (from something) - the remaining hangnail/dead human spirit.

15 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Believers are "new creatures" (2 Cor 5:17) precisely because of becoming trichotomous because of being born (spiritually) again.

The soul, as you accurately noted at the beginning of the OP, contains the intellect, emotions, conscience and will.  All of that will be 'tormented day and night for ever and ever'.  

If the soul ceases to exist, there will be no emotions or consciousness.  And that contradicts Scripture.

Matt 25:46 - Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

If the soul ceases to exist, there can be no 'eternal punishment' and Matt 25:46 cannot be true.  The word eternal/everlasting would have no meaning in such a case.

Yes.

[FreeGrace]

52 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

That would make the person trichotomous still.

Not when the human spirit is dead (non functioning).  You are assuming a dead human spirit cannot exist.  Well, we have plenty of evidence of dead human bodies still existing, even thousands of years.  So you have no case for a disappearing human spirit.

52 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

Remaining like a hangnail. I would think it cease to exist, which in Eph. 4:24 it (human spirit) is created anew by God.

Doesn't matter what any of us "think".   That is only opinion.  We must stay with Scripture and what it says.  When a person dies, the body goes through decomposition, but that doesn't mean they disappear, since bones that are very old are still being found.  Death doesn't mean disappearance.

52 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

Born-"AGAIN" of the Holy Spirit (spiritual) seems to me to be what in the original was a physical birth similarly now a spiritual birth, is it not? Physical birth consists of egg and sperm and same with spiritual birth - egg and sperm?

We cannot make a parallel between the physical and spiritual, since the Bible doesn't.  So any claim being made is only an opinion.  Spiritual birth is clearly states in Eph 2:5 - made us alive (human spirit) with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions (spiritual death) —it is by grace you have been saved.

52 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

(body/physical/egg=Jesus, and spirit/spirit/sperm=Spirit?) is confusing.

Yes, so let's just stay with Scripture.

52 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

I would prefer that in physical birth there is no human spirit passed in the genes of Adam and the woman for in death it ceases to exist?

What we "prefer" is just opinion.  And you seem to be assuming that "in death it ceases to exist".  We certainly know that the body doesn't 'cease to exist' when it dies.  It very slowly decomposes, but bones are still being found that are thousands of years old, proving that your opinion doesn't hold up.

52 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

Which when one is born-again God creates a new human spirit (out of nothing-"bara") - Eph. 4:24? not "from something."

The verse says nothing of what you say here.

Eph 4:24 - and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

This refers to the human spirit, where the Holy Spirit resides in us.  Where else could He reside, since the body is corrupt, according to the Bible?

And the "new self" simply refers to the "new life" of the human spirit, which has beeen "made alive" at regeneration, per Eph 2:5 - - made us alive (human spirit) with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions (spiritual death) —it is by grace you have been saved.

52 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

  FreeGrace said:

So, because of this, all humans need to be born AGAIN, which is through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

I hold faith is not a requirement of the person since "dead men have no faith" (Eph. 2:1) and faith is a gift of God (Eph. 2:8-9.)

Wow.  That is a stunning statement, given the clarity of Eph 2:8, which specifically says that we are saved THROUGH FAITH.  And you think that "faity is NOT a requirement"??  Really?  

52 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

I think the "torment" is not an act performed by one upon another, but just the reality of separation from God in which "torment" is the symptom of separation.

Everyone is free to think whatever they want, but Matt 25:46 is more than clear that an eternity in the LOF is a punishment.

How can ceasing to exist be a punishment, when the person (consciousness, etc) doesn't exist?  Impossible.

52 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

"Hell" would be the grave so, yes, God HAS already destroyed body and soul in hell/grave.

There are no verses that support your opinion.  The Bible teaches that both the saved and unsaved will be resurrected.  So the bodies aren't "destroyed".  Only the unsaved will experience another physical death, when they will be cast into the LOF which is called the "second death", because their still mortal resurrected physical body will certainly die again.

52 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

It is the result of sin and ordained by default by virtue of creation, which I hold that man (and woman) were created sinful or as the word is defined by Strong as "missing the mark" (think archery). What is that "mark" missed by default in their creation? The glory of God, or the glory that is God.

The Bible absolutely disagrees with what you "hold" to.  Again, just another opinion.  Adam and Eve were created "good", as all of creation was called.

But they were free to make choices, and chose to disobey God.  They became sinners.

52 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

Again, I hold that any "torment" is not inflicted by one upon another, rather, that "torment" is what the soul experiences by virtue of being separate from God since Lazarus was "[in] comforted" and the rich man in "torment" by virtue of immediate separation from God in physical death.

You are free to "hold" to any opinion you have, but I hold to what the Bible says.  Matt 25:46 clearly indicates that an eternity in the LOF is punishment.

So, can you explain how to punish someone who doesn't exist?  

52 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

  FreeGrace said:

The conversion refers to the NEW birth, or RE-generation of the human spirit when the person puts their trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross.

Again, that would mean the existence of a "dead" spirit remaining like a hangnail or and instead of God creating anew (out of nothing) to be a human spirit created anew (from something) - the remaining hangnail/dead human spirit.

This paragraph is rather convoluted and impossible to understand.

The concept is very simple and clear.  Adam/Eve were created with a living human spirit.  When they disobeyed, their human spirit DIED.  That doesn't mean it disappeared, as you opine.

Romans 5 teaches that the sin nature is passed by the father (Adam).  So everyone is born spiritually dead and in need of being born again spiritually, which occurs when a person puts their trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross.  Your claim that faith isn't a requirement for the spiritual re-birth is shocking and totally against orthodox Christianity.  It is faith that is at the central in Christianity.  

52 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

FreeGrace said:

Believers are "new creatures" (2 Cor 5:17) precisely because of becoming trichotomous because of being born (spiritually) again.

The soul, as you accurately noted at the beginning of the OP, contains the intellect, emotions, conscience and will.  All of that will be 'tormented day and night for ever and ever'.  

If the soul ceases to exist, there will be no emotions or consciousness.  And that contradicts Scripture.

Matt 25:46 - Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

If the soul ceases to exist, there can be no 'eternal punishment' and Matt 25:46 cannot be true.  The word eternal/everlasting would have no meaning in such a case.

Yes.

Is this an agreement with what I said?  Because the rest of your post clearly indicates you don't agree with it.  

I am looking forward to your explanation of how "eternal punishment" from Matt 25:46 can occur if the person's soul (consciousness) doesn't exist.

I hope you'll answer.

[jeremiah1five]

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Not when the human spirit is dead (non functioning).  You are assuming a dead human spirit cannot exist.  Well, we have plenty of evidence of dead human bodies still existing, even thousands of years.  So you have no case for a disappearing human spirit.

I take my understanding of a non-existent human spirit from Ephesians 4:24 in which the word "created" [in righteousness and holiness] is a Greek word that corresponds to the Hebrew word "bara" in Genesis 1 which word is used of God creating 'something out of nothing' such as creating the universe out of nothing. The other word in Genesis 1 is the word used to created something out of something (man from the dust.)

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Doesn't matter what any of us "think".   That is only opinion.  We must stay with Scripture and what it says.  When a person dies, the body goes through decomposition, but that doesn't mean they disappear, since bones that are very old are still being found.  Death doesn't mean disappearance.

We cannot make a parallel between the physical and spiritual, since the Bible doesn't.  So any claim being made is only an opinion.  Spiritual birth is clearly states in Eph 2:5 - made us alive (human spirit) with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions (spiritual death) —it is by grace you have been saved.

The bible does. What is in physical existence can originally be found in spiritual reality (such as heavenly Tabernacle, et.al.)

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Yes, so let's just stay with Scripture.

What we "prefer" is just opinion.  And you seem to be assuming that "in death it ceases to exist".  We certainly know that the body doesn't 'cease to exist' when it dies.  It very slowly decomposes, but bones are still being found that are thousands of years old, proving that your opinion doesn't hold up.

The verse says nothing of what you say here.

Eph 4:24 - and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

This refers to the human spirit, where the Holy Spirit resides in us.  Where else could He reside, since the body is corrupt, according to the Bible?

This is the whole point of atonement. 

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.  John 14:17.

Until atonement was realized in time and the Spirit can now be IN [you] it was before atonement merely "with" [you.]

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

And the "new self" simply refers to the "new life" of the human spirit, which has beeen "made alive" at regeneration, per Eph 2:5 - - made us alive (human spirit) with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions (spiritual death) —it is by grace you have been saved.

Wow.  That is a stunning statement, given the clarity of Eph 2:8, which specifically says that we are saved THROUGH FAITH.  And you think that "faity is NOT a requirement"??  Really?  

God makes no requirement of faith in any of the three Hebrew covenants. 

Abraham Covenant: requirement is circumcision.

Mosaic Covenant: requirement is obedience.

New Covenant: no requirements at all.

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Everyone is free to think whatever they want, but Matt 25:46 is more than clear that an eternity in the LOF is a punishment.

Fire is particular to physical reality. It requires combustible material, an accelerant, and oxygen. There is no oxygen in eternity as God does not 'breathe' neither will man. God Himself is everything life. We will not need oxygen to live.

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

How can ceasing to exist be a punishment, when the person (consciousness, etc) doesn't exist?  Impossible.

I don't think I said that. What ceases to exist is the connection to God which the opposite is separation - eternal separation, which "the sting of death is [unatoned sin.] And if it stings to be separated from God I think in "time" it may "feel" like a fire or flame. I have been stung by a bee and initially it is a sting but soon as the area acclimates it begins to feel like being burned (fire/flame.)

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

There are no verses that support your opinion.  The Bible teaches that both the saved and unsaved will be resurrected.  So the bodies aren't "destroyed".  Only the unsaved will experience another physical death, when they will be cast into the LOF which is called the "second death", because their still mortal resurrected physical body will certainly die again.

Between the two is the corrupt, sinful, unatoned body raised in the same condition or is [both] "resurrected" the same? But it can't be. For the believer their bodies are 'changed from corruption to incorruption.' Does it say the same for the unatoned?

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The Bible absolutely disagrees with what you "hold" to.  Again, just another opinion.  Adam and Eve were created "good", as all of creation was called.

As Isaiah says and I agree and understand:

1. There is only One God. 2. There is None like Him. 3. He gives His glory to No One.

And this means that man was created fallen short of the glory that isGod. Man wasn't created with any of the Nature or Deific Attributes of God. This alone proves that man was not possessing any of the glories of God (Eternalness, Holiness, Sinlessness, etc.) and even one "lack" in man condemns him (in creation) to being created "missing the mark" (sinful) of the glory of God. One Person stand before a Holy God blameless and that is a Holy Son. 

Besides this the word "good" does not mean "holy" or "righteous" or "sinless." It merely means "good [enough] or "to specification." It's the same as when we complete a job well done or resulting in "good", to specification. This word in Genesis has no moral connotations or meaning. God created and His creation was exactly the way He desired to create. It was to His specifications.

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

But they were free to make choices, and chose to disobey God.  They became sinners.

They were created sinner which is why they sinned. They were not "holy" or "sinless" for if created with an Attribute or Nature of God they would NOT have sinned but would have been as the Son - sinless. 

 13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:13.

In other words - sin comes from sinner.

Besides this their disobedience and the eating of the Tree was not their first sin so upon this fact there is and was no "Fall." Their (Adam and Eve) first sin was adding to God's Word when they added "neither shall ye touch it." Lying is a sin is it not?

      6       Add thou not unto his words,
      Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Proverbs 30:6.

They lied and were 'reproved.' According to 2 Timothy 3:16-17 the Word of God "reproves" the liar. God never said "neither shall ye touch it" and it doesn't matter "without Law there is no sin." It was their ability to sin without a command against lying that proved their sinfulness. And it appears that to live forever one only have eaten from the Tree of Life (which is metaphor) for the Word who was with God and was God 'in the beginning.'

If Adam and the woman possessed ANY of God's Deific Attributes (sinlessness, holiness, etc.) they would have by necessity MUST possess ALL Deific Attributes of God or they would have fallen short. The word for that is "sin." So, no, being created "good" has no reference to any moral equivalency. It merely meant "good [enough] or "to specification."

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

You are free to "hold" to any opinion you have, but I hold to what the Bible says.  Matt 25:46 clearly indicates that an eternity in the LOF is punishment.

So, can you explain how to punish someone who doesn't exist?  

I don't think I said I believe in "annihilationism." The unatoned will exist. They will exist separated from God. How that will play out in practical manner I could not say except that we as believers will glorify God for their judgment by God - even if we see our mother or child in that group of the unatoned. We will glorify God against them.

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

This paragraph is rather convoluted and impossible to understand.

The concept is very simple and clear.  Adam/Eve were created with a living human spirit.  When they disobeyed, their human spirit DIED.  That doesn't mean it disappeared, as you opine.

I agree, except based upon Eph. 4:24 what God creates "anew" is created "out of nothing" and the human spirit cannot exist and then God creates a new human spirit when they are born again and now "you" have two spirits - one existing but dead, the other created "out of nothing."

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Romans 5 teaches that the sin nature is passed by the father (Adam).  So everyone is born spiritually dead and in need of being born again spiritually, which occurs when a person puts their trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross.  Your claim that faith isn't a requirement for the spiritual re-birth is shocking and totally against orthodox Christianity.  It is faith that is at the central in Christianity.  Is this an agreement with what I said?  Because the rest of your post clearly indicates you don't agree with it.  

I am looking forward to your explanation of how "eternal punishment" from Matt 25:46 can occur if the person's soul (consciousness) doesn't exist.

I hope you'll answer.

No one "puts their trust in Christ." Salvation is of the LORD and like Lazarus dead men do not have faith for faith is a gift given at salvation. God is the one who saves without any input from man. God is merely following the "book of life of the lamb" which was "made" (with names of the predestined saved) before God created heaven, earth, and man. Then, God went about creating. Everyone God ordained to salvation will at the appointed time be saved without fail. 

God created man sinful, or "missing the mark" of the glory of God which is why they sinned because sin cannot and does not come from holy. The last Adam proved that. He was Holy, He was Sinless, and He did no sin. Man was sinful and this is why he sinned. Even adding to God's word "neither shall ye touch it" is sin for he was reproved and found a liar and liars do not the kingdom of God living in them. 

God saves through covenant. Nothing else. He saved merely on His promise to save. That's it. He promised and then went about keeping His promise and none of the three Hebrew Covenants have faith as a requirement and the reason for that is dead men - like Lazarus - do not have faith. They are dead in trespasses and sin. Lazarus could not exert any faith to be resurrected. Until Jesus said, "Come Forth" he would stay dead. God is following the lamb's book of life without any input from man for dead men have no faith for faith is a gift of God. It comes with salvation and the only people that are inheritors of the promise are the seed of Abraham. 

[FreeGrace]

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

I take my understanding of a non-existent human spirit from Ephesians 4:24 in which the word "created" [in righteousness and holiness] is a Greek word that corresponds to the Hebrew word "bara" in Genesis 1 which word is used of God creating 'something out of nothing' such as creating the universe out of nothing. The other word in Genesis 1 is the word used to created something out of something (man from the dust.)

The righteousness/holiness that is created is imputed, and has nothing to do with the human spirit.  You are simply ignoring the obvious meaning of being RE-generated, which is because the human spirit is already in the human being, but non-functioning.  So, at saving faith, the spirit is RE-generated.  It's already there, but "made alive" as Eph 2:5 plainly says.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

We cannot make a parallel between the physical and spiritual, since the Bible doesn't.  So any claim being made is only an opinion.  Spiritual birth is clearly states in Eph 2:5 - made us alive (human spirit) with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions (spiritual death) —it is by grace you have been saved.

The bible does.

Please give evidence when making a claim.  And you are ignoring the clear words of Eph 2:5.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

What is in physical existence can originally be found in spiritual reality (such as heavenly Tabernacle, et.al.)

This is hardly a blanket proof for your claim.  

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

Yes, so let's just stay with Scripture.

What we "prefer" is just opinion.  And you seem to be assuming that "in death it ceases to exist".  We certainly know that the body doesn't 'cease to exist' when it dies.  It very slowly decomposes, but bones are still being found that are thousands of years old, proving that your opinion doesn't hold up.

The verse says nothing of what you say here.

Eph 4:24 - and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

This is the whole point of atonement.

You have just ignored what I posted above.  Death doesn't equal "ceasing to exist" as I've pointed out by the FACT that after death, the body is still here with us.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.  John 14:17.

This isn't about atonement, but the indwelling Holy Spirit, which occurs at saving faith in Christ.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

God makes no requirement of faith in any of the three Hebrew covenants. 

Abraham Covenant: requirement is circumcision.

Mosaic Covenant: requirement is obedience.

None of these are about salvation.  

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

New Covenant: no requirements at all

I'm starting to think you don't know HOW one receives salvation by your claim.  The New Covenant is specifically about salvation.  

What do you think the words "saving faith" means?

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

  FreeGrace said:

Everyone is free to think whatever they want, but Matt 25:46 is more than clear that an eternity in the LOF is a punishment.

Fire is particular to physical reality. It requires combustible material, an accelerant, and oxygen. There is no oxygen in eternity as God does not 'breathe' neither will man. God Himself is everything life. We will not need oxygen to live.

How does any of your response relate to what I said above?  Seems you just ignore what I post and continue on in your own dialogue.  The point of Matt 25:46 is that there will be an eternal punishment for the unsaved.  Why do you ignore that?

In the Bible, 'fire' can be used as a metaphor for several things:  eternal punishment, physical punishment, and an evaluation, such as 1 Cor 3:14-15.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

FreeGrace said:

How can ceasing to exist be a punishment, when the person (consciousness, etc) doesn't exist?  Impossible.

I don't think I said that.

I suggest you choose your words more carefully, because my comments are based on what you post.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

What ceases to exist is the connection to God which the opposite is separation - eternal separation, which "the sting of death is [unatoned sin.] And if it stings to be separated from God I think in "time" it may "feel" like a fire or flame. I have been stung by a bee and initially it is a sting but soon as the area acclimates it begins to feel like being burned (fire/flame.)

So then, do you believe that the soul will exist eternally?  You've not been clear on that.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

FreeGrace said:

There are no verses that support your opinion.  The Bible teaches that both the saved and unsaved will be resurrected.  So the bodies aren't "destroyed".  Only the unsaved will experience another physical death, when they will be cast into the LOF which is called the "second death", because their still mortal resurrected physical body will certainly die again.

Between the two is the corrupt, sinful, unatoned body raised in the same condition or is [both] "resurrected" the same? But it can't be. For the believer their bodies are 'changed from corruption to incorruption.' Does it say the same for the unatoned?

What I posted is clear enough.  The unsaved bodies will be raised back to life but will still be mortal, and subject to die again, which will occur when they are cast into the LOF per Rev 20:14.  The LOF is called "the second death", which refers to the FACT that the mortal body "raised to life" to appear before the GWT judgment will die AGAIN.

The believer's bodies will be resurrected like the body Jesus was resurrected in:  immortal and glorified, never to die again.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

FreeGrace said:

The Bible absolutely disagrees with what you "hold" to.  Again, just another opinion.  Adam and Eve were created "good", as all of creation was called.

As Isaiah says and I agree and understand:

1. There is only One God. 2. There is None like Him. 3. He gives His glory to No One.

And this means that man was created fallen short of the glory that isGod. Man wasn't created with any of the Nature or Deific Attributes of God. This alone proves that man was not possessing any of the glories of God (Eternalness, Holiness, Sinlessness, etc.) and even one "lack" in man condemns him (in creation) to being created "missing the mark" (sinful) of the glory of God. One Person stand before a Holy God blameless and that is a Holy Son.

Alll this is rather confused.  God created both Adam and the woman without sin or corruption.  Otherwise, you have to defend a perfect and holy God creating evil.  God gave the 2 freedom to make choices, which led to rebellion, which is evil.

iow, God permits evil to exist, but He cannot create it.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

Besides this the word "good" does not mean "holy" or "righteous" or "sinless." It merely means "good [enough] or "to specification." It's the same as when we complete a job well done or resulting in "good", to specification.

You're trying to equate what man does with what God has done.  Nope.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

This word in Genesis has no moral connotations or meaning. God created and His creation was exactly the way He desired to create. It was to His specifications.

When perfect God says His creation is "good" He means just that, without sin.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

They were created sinner which is why they sinned. They were not "holy" or "sinless" for if created with an Attribute or Nature of God they would NOT have sinned but would have been as the Son - sinless.

There was no need for a Savior until they sinned, so your understanding is in error.

The promise of a Savior came at Gen 3:15, which is AFTER they sinned.  No need until they became sinners.

If God created them as sinners, you have to defend a perfect holy God creating sin.  I thoroughly reject that opinion.  Nor does the Bible support your claim.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:13.

Right.  Once A&E sinned, all their progeny were born sinners.  Romans 5 covers this in detail.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

In other words - sin comes from sinner.

Except for A&E.  They became sinners.  Read Romans 5.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

Besides this their disobedience and the eating of the Tree was not their first sin so upon this fact there is and was no "Fall." Their (Adam and Eve) first sin was adding to God's Word when they added "neither shall ye touch it." Lying is a sin is it not?

Nope.  That was Eve's failure to pay attention to commands.  That was no sin, because only God sets the standards in the Garden, and the ONLY SIN possible was eating of the forbidden tree.  The text is clear enough.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

      6       Add thou not unto his words,
      Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Proverbs 30:6.

Apparently you misunderstand.  Eve didn't lie.  She was confused and deceived.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

They lied and were 'reproved.' According to 2 Timothy 3:16-17 the Word of God "reproves" the liar.

No one lied in the Garden except the master liar, Satan.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

If Adam and the woman possessed ANY of God's Deific Attributes (sinlessness, holiness, etc.) they would have by necessity MUST possess ALL Deific Attributes of God or they would have fallen short. The word for that is "sin." So, no, being created "good" has no reference to any moral equivalency. It merely meant "good [enough] or "to specification."

Sorry, but your opinions just don't align with Scripture.  

Gen 3:22 - And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

The point here is that in their new sinful condition, if they ate from that tree, they would "live forever" in a sinful state, with no chance for salvation.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

I don't think I said I believe in "annihilationism." The unatoned will exist. They will exist separated from God. How that will play out in practical manner I could not say except that we as believers will glorify God for their judgment by God - even if we see our mother or child in that group of the unatoned. We will glorify God against them.

So it seems you don't believe Matt 25:46 or Regv 20:11-15.  Why not?

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

I agree, except based upon Eph. 4:24 what God creates "anew" is created "out of nothing" and the human spirit cannot exist and then God creates a new human spirit when they are born again and now "you" have two spirits - one existing but dead, the other created "out of nothing."

Both the soul and spirit are immaterial.  So your point about being "ex nihilo" is immaterial as well.  Just as a human dead body continues to exist, so does a human spirit that has died.  But you are free to disagree.  But your views don't align with Scripture.  You are clearly ignoring the meaning of words:  RE-generation, being made alive.  These clearly refer to a dead human spirit that comes back to life.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

No one "puts their trust in Christ." Salvation is of the LORD and like Lazarus dead men do not have faith for faith is a gift given at salvation.

Such a theology is foreign to the Bible.  To "believe in Christ" means to "put your trust in Christ".  Salvation is based on faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross.  Apparently you align with Calvinism, which holds to the idea that God chooses who to save by giving them regeneration so that they will believe.  That is not in the Bible.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

God is the one who saves without any input from man.

What you seem to be totally unaware of is the FACT that the offer of salvation is to everyone, per Titus 2:11.  And eternal life is given to those who believe the gospel promise of salvation.  John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 10:28.  

A jailer asked Paul what he MUST DO DO DO to be saved, and Paul's answer was:  believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

So it is clear that your opinions are directly opposed to Paul's answer.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

God is merely following the "book of life of the lamb" which was "made" (with names of the predestined saved) before God created heaven, earth, and man. Then, God went about creating. Everyone God ordained to salvation will at the appointed time be saved without fail.

There is no such thing as "predestined saved".  Romans 8 mentions predestination, but it isn't about salvation.  Rom 8:29 - For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

That isn't about salvation, but becoming "Christ-like".  And when all believers receive their resurrection bodies, they will fulfill that verse.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

God created man sinful, or "missing the mark" of the glory of God which is why they sinned because sin cannot and does not come from holy.

I thoroghly reject that error.  Romans 5 refutes it.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

God saves through covenant.

The Bible is very clear about how to be saved and receive eternal life, which is through faith in Christ.  Those who d0n't believe that are in direct opposition to Scripture.

John 1:12 - Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God

Gal 3:26 - So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,

1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

These verses clearly refute your claim.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

 He saved merely on His promise to save. That's it.

What you have missed is what His promise is BASED ON.  See the verses above.

Also, 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

27 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

He promised and then went about keeping His promise and none of the three Hebrew Covenants have faith as a requirement and the reason for that is dead men - like Lazarus - do not have faith. 

Which Lazarus are you referring to?  Luke 16 or John 11?

I have proven my views from actual Scripture.  You've repeatedly mentioned what you "hold to", which is just your opinions.

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

God makes no requirement of faith in any of the three Hebrew covenants. 

Abraham Covenant: requirement is circumcision.

Mosaic Covenant: requirement is obedience.

New Covenant: no requirements at all.

No one "puts their trust in Christ."

God saves through covenant. Nothing else. 

Apparently you aren't familiar with anything about the New Covenant.

1 Cor 11:25 - In the same way, after supper he (Jesus) took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

Rom 3:25 - God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood —to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

v.26 - he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

v.28 - For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

v.30 - since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

Rom 4:3 - What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

v.11 - And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

v.12 - And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

v.13 - It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

v.16 - Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

v.23 - The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

So you see, even the Abrahamic covenant was by faith.  Circumcision was ONLY a sign, a SEAL of the righteousness he had by FAITH.  Rom 4:11

Faith has been THE requirement throughout the Bible.

No one is saved apart from faith in Christ.

[jeremiah1five]

On 2/19/2025 at 4:55 PM, FreeGrace said:

Apparently you aren't familiar with anything about the New Covenant.

1 Cor 11:25 - In the same way, after supper he (Jesus) took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

Of course I do. I take what is written in Scripture for my understanding in and under the anointing. Now, about the New Covenant here is the passage describing Jeremiah's prophecy:

      31       Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
      That I will make a new covenant
      With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
      32       Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
      In the day that I took them by the hand
      To bring them out of the land of Egypt;
      Which my covenant they brake,
      Although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
      33       But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
      After those days, saith the LORD,
      fI will put my law in their inward parts,
      And write it in their hearts;
      And will be their God,
      And they shall be my people.
      34       And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,
      Know the LORD:
      For they shall all know me,
      From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
      For I will forgive their iniquity,
      And I will remember their sin no more. Jeremiah 31:31–34.

And honest reading shows that faith is not mentioned nor a requirement. Instead, the New Covenant shows only what God is going to do to save His people and there is no requirement for faith.

On 2/19/2025 at 4:55 PM, FreeGrace said:

Rom 3:25 - God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood —to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

v.26 - he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

v.28 - For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

v.30 - since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

Saul says that men are dead in trespasses and sins. Lazarus was dead in trespasses and sins and laid in the grave unable to "have faith" in anything to change his condition. In fact, Lazarus remained in the grave dead three, then four days until Jesus even got up to go to him and his family. It wasn't faith that saved Lazarus from this time in the grave UNTIL Jesus commanded "Lazarus, [to] Come Forth!" This is a powerful lesson on being raised from the dead being killed by trespasses and sin. Faith played no part in Lazarus' resurrection.

On 2/19/2025 at 4:55 PM, FreeGrace said:

Rom 4:3 - What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

v.11 - And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

v.12 - And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

v.13 - It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

v.16 - Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

v.23 - The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

So you see, even the Abrahamic covenant was by faith. Circumcision was ONLY a sign, a SEAL of the righteousness he had by FAITH.  Rom 4:11

Faith has been THE requirement throughout the Bible.

No one is saved apart from faith in Christ.

The Abraham Covenant is found in Genesis 12, 15, and 17, and an honest reading of the pertinent passages reveals no faith is required in this covenant. 

And it should be said that Abraham was an obedient believer who had relationship with God before God stepped out and gave Abraham promises as we find in these chapters in Genesis. And the faith that Saul writes about that he had had nothing to do with the covenant promises in chapters 12, 15, and 17. The only requirement was to "walk perfect before God" and "circumcision. The faith Saul is referencing surrounds Abraham going up the mount to sacrifice Isaac. And faith of Abraham in this event is found in Genesis 22:5 AFTER the closing of the Abrahamic Covenant.

Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. Gen. 22:5.

If Abraham was successful is sacrificing Isaac Abraham's faith is wrapped up knowing that Isaac is a promised birth and the covenant is to pass to him so Abe's faith which he exercised is holding God to "provide" and that Isaac will be his rightful heir and would have to raise Isaac from death to bring that about. 

But a reading of the Abraham Covenant found in Genesis 12, 15, and 17 does not mention faith nor is faith a requirement.