GOG-MAGOG-TIMING

[AdHoc]

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes, but the idea is 'when' so we can understand.

Not really the ideal context, is it? Pharisees aren't God, they don't breathe out consuming fire, emanating from heaven, on vast armies looking to take down the King and His kingdom.  This is a righteous act poured out on God's enemies.

The apt comparison was the time fire did come down from God and consume the wood, stones, water and the very dust, leaving nothing. This is  righteous act in real power in the face of God's enemies.

Unscrupulous and corrupt religious leaders consuming the entire living of the vulnerable isn't in the same universe. 

This is unrighteous acts born of avarice.

My point precisely. It must come at another time when it's reasonable and not in competition with other factual events.

Thank you for your courteous answer. You made some valid points.

I would like to point out that if scripture says that Magog's rebellion is AFTER  the 1,000 years, we have no option but to believe that. And if Ezekiel 38 seems to support that - all the better. What is established is that dead men will be around and have to be buried, and bones of dead men will be scouted for. This casts a slghtly different meaning on "devour", but does not invalidate it. Both Strong and Vine give a meaning that allows "devouring" without total annihilation. Here is Vine;

2. katesthio and kataphago (κατεσθίω, 2719), kata, “down,” intensive, and No. 1, signifies (a) “to consume by eating, to devour,” said of birds, Matt. 13:4; Mark 4:4; Luke 8:5; of the Dragon, Rev. 12:4; of a prophet, “eating” up a book, suggestive of spiritually “eating” and digesting its contents, Rev. 10:9 (cf. Ezek. 2:8; 3:1–3; Jer. 15:16); (b) metaphorically, “to squander, to waste,” Luke 15:30; “to consume” one’s physical powers by emotion, John 2:17; “to devour” by forcible appropriation, as of widows’ property, Matt. 23:14 (KJV only); Mark 12:40; “to demand maintenance,” as false apostles did to the church at Corinth, 2 Cor. 11:20; “to exploit or prey on one another,” Gal. 5:15, where “bite … devour … consume” form a climax, the first two describing a process, the last the act of swallowing down; to “destroy” by fire, Rev. 11:5; 20:9. See EAT.¶

Vine, W. E., Unger, M. F., & White, W., Jr. (1996). Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Vol. 2, pp. 166–167). Nashville, TN: T. Nelson.

Vine inserts the meaning of Revelation 20:19 under (b) - metaphor. I tend to agree with you in taking it literally, but there are a great crowd of men who die by the sword too (Ezek.38:21-22). Pestilence will also account for many deaths, and the wording of the rain of fire allows for men not totally consumed.

I do not see how the 7 months or 7 years changes the meaning. Revelation 20 gives a sequence but no time limit. It is my understanding that the earth will be purged too, but without the death of countless millions who did not join Magog. How? I don't know.

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

As with everything else biblically prophetic, it is a matter of interpretation with a plethora of views. Many well-respected prophecy watchers are openly wondering if the events today will be the catalyst for this Gog-Magog invasion. I agree Ezekiel and John state it plainly, with two distinguishable objectives and reasons, one to take a spoil, and the other to overthrow the righteous government.

One thing that rings true is the fulfillment of prophecy is best understood in hindsight. How Israel was born in one day is an excellent example, along with about a dozen prophetic fulfillments between May 14, 1948, and the 1967 Israeli Six-day War.

I will not rehash all the particulars but question only one. What is meant by Israel living in peace and security, without walls, bars, and gates?

As in antiquity, Israel’s towns do not have walls, bars, or gates. A well-respected Messianic Jew living in Israel (Amir Tsarfati) harped for years Israel has never been more safe and secure than they are now, and most Israelis agreed. I assume he was referring to Israel’s military might, the most powerful in the region and 4^th most powerful in the world.

From two years ago, with the several thousand rockets launched toward Israel and what is happening right now, I wonder if his thoughts have changed. Having lived there, I wonder if @George would chime in and give his perspective of Israel living safe and secure in the land.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amir_Tsarfati#:~:text=Tsarfati served in the Israel,guiding a tour of Israel.

I see your reasoning about a possibility of two conflicts. I admit my twofold reason is not clearly proven. Revelation 20 gives the goal as Jerusalem, and Ezekiel the spoils of war. How about both reasons being valid? Satan's goal is Jerusalem and his deception is that rag-tag soldiers are promised the spoils. It maybe weak, but every king knows that you can start a rebellion in two days if its about the scarcity of food.

I see things differently about Israel's safety. In its whole history, except for Solomon's reign, Israel is under threat. Foreign armies are part of the Covenant and its penalties. For instance, the war with Amelek is "from generation to generation". Gaza, West bank and Lebanon have security fences. The Gaza one is 40 km long. In the early 2000's Israel lost well over a thousand in terrorist bombings. In my recent visit to Israel (April) the military and police presence, especially in Jerusalem, was remarkable. Plain clothes men and women with the same boots and ominous bulges about the size of a holstered firearm were the order of the day.

Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 make it clear that peace only comes to Israel when Messiah comes.

Israel lies strategically placed on the main trade route India - Europe and Babylon - Egypt. It was, and is, a choice bit of land, and, as such, continually under threat. I think that Israel's army is fourth largest in the region, and 15th in the world. What boosts its effectiveness is aid from the USA and nuclear capability. Also, it is well known that the average Israeli is a very motivated soldier.

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

I see your reasoning about a possibility of two conflicts. I admit my twofold reason is not clearly proven. Revelation 20 gives the goal as Jerusalem, and Ezekiel the spoils of war. How about both reasons being valid? Satan's goal is Jerusalem and his deception is that rag-tag soldiers are promised the spoils. It maybe weak, but every king knows that you can start a rebellion in two days if its about the scarcity of food.

I see things differently about Israel's safety. In its whole history, except for Solomon's reign, Israel is under threat. Foreign armies are part of the Covenant and its penalties. For instance, the war with Amelek is "from generation to generation". Gaza, West bank and Lebanon have security fences. The Gaza one is 40 km long. In the early 2000's Israel lost well over a thousand in terrorist bombings. In my recent visit to Israel (April) the military and police presence, especially in Jerusalem, was remarkable. Plain clothes men and women with the same boots and ominous bulges about the size of a holstered firearm were the order of the day.

Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 make it clear that peace only comes to Israel when Messiah comes.

Israel lies strategically placed on the main trade route India - Europe and Babylon - Egypt. It was, and is, a choice bit of land, and, as such, continually under threat. I think that Israel's army is fourth largest in the region, and 15th in the world. What boosts its effectiveness is aid from the USA and nuclear capability. Also, it is well known that the average Israeli is a very motivated soldier.

I think another thing we see is very relevant at present. Have you noticed the escalating increase in antisemitism globally against Israel?  University students, countries, cities, the United Nations, and American cities are all taking to the streets and protesting and hating Israel.

The number of people supporting poor Hamas and terrorism, that Israel deserves what they got. Here in America, we have high-ranking government officials in support of Hamas. The screaming for Israel to pause their actions and use restraint is totally ridiculous.

It will be interesting to see where all this goes in the weeks ahead.

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you for your courteous answer. You made some valid points.

I would like to point out that if scripture says that Magog's rebellion is AFTER  the 1,000 years, we have no option but to believe that. And if Ezekiel 38 seems to support that - all the better. What is established is that dead men will be around and have to be buried, and bones of dead men will be scouted for. This casts a slghtly different meaning on "devour", but does not invalidate it.

If it's two incomparable actions separated by a millennia, then it's not a problem. 

 

10 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

Both Strong and Vine give a meaning that allows "devouring" without total annihilation. Here is Vine;

2. katesthio and kataphago (κατεσθίω, 2719), kata, “down,” intensive, and No. 1, signifies (a) “to consume by eating, to devour,” said of birds, Matt. 13:4; Mark 4:4; Luke 8:5; of the Dragon, Rev. 12:4; of a prophet, “eating” up a book, suggestive of spiritually “eating” and digesting its contents, Rev. 10:9 (cf. Ezek. 2:8; 3:1–3; Jer. 15:16); (b) metaphorically, “to squander, to waste,” Luke 15:30; “to consume” one’s physical powers by emotion, John 2:17; “to devour” by forcible appropriation, as of widows’ property, Matt. 23:14 (KJV only); Mark 12:40; “to demand maintenance,” as false apostles did to the church at Corinth, 2 Cor. 11:20; “to exploit or prey on one another,” Gal. 5:15, where “bite … devour … consume” form a climax, the first two describing a process, the last the act of swallowing down; to “destroy” by fire, Rev. 11:5; 20:9. See EAT.¶

Yes. I make the assumption the context, as well as the persons involved, make all the difference in  category. 

10 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Vine inserts the meaning of Revelation 20:19 under (b) - metaphor.

But where do we draw a line? I can see 'sand of the seashore' as a metaphor, and the 'four corners of the earth'. I can also see 'marching across the broad expanse of the earth' doesn't mean 'every square foot' or 'aimless wandering'. 

Satan released is a fact, the deception is fact, Gog and Magog are very real even if the identity may be metaphoric, surrounding the city is fact. 

I don't see fire coming down from heaven and consuming as dwelling solely in the metaphorical realm since God has sent fire from heaven that consumed wood, stones, flesh, water and dust. 

 

10 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

I tend to agree with you in taking it literally, but there are a great crowd of men who die by the sword too (Ezek.38:21-22). Pestilence will also account for many deaths, and the wording of the rain of fire allows for men not totally consumed.

But if it's understood that Eze 38 is an earlier time, the issue is solved. I see enough evidence to warrant that conclusion.

10 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I do not see how the 7 months or 7 years changes the meaning. Revelation 20 gives a sequence but no time limit. 

True, but there is more surrounding Gog and the nations in Eze 38 leading me to conclude it's not the same as Gog after the millennium.

[AdHoc]

On 11/10/2023 at 1:47 AM, Dennis1209 said:

I think another thing we see is very relevant at present. Have you noticed the escalating increase in antisemitism globally against Israel?  University students, countries, cities, the United Nations, and American cities are all taking to the streets and protesting and hating Israel.

The number of people supporting poor Hamas and terrorism, that Israel deserves what they got. Here in America, we have high-ranking government officials in support of Hamas. The screaming for Israel to pause their actions and use restraint is totally ridiculous.

It will be interesting to see where all this goes in the weeks ahead.

A man cannot read the Old Testament without having the distinct feeling that this unreasonable hate of the Jews is partly from God Himself. Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 both have Jehovah actively assisting in Israel's chastisement. But they also contribute themselves.

The Lord's work in dividing the languages at Babel was to cause a natural reserve between the nations. The best way to integrate and avoid discriminatory treatment in a foreign country is to adopt their language, culture and habits. The Jews don't do this. They are just about the only nation that can ward off integration after the third generation. They talk, dress, eat and worship differently, and don't care. This riles their host nations. It also makes them easy targets.

But in the end, far from negatively treating anybody, we should remember that they are in Covenant via Abraham, and anybody who isn't careful in their treatment of a Jew, is playing with fire.

[Dennis1209]

20 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

A man cannot read the Old Testament without having the distinct feeling that this unreasonable hate of the Jews is partly from God Himself. Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 both have Jehovah actively assisting in Israel's chastisement. But they also contribute themselves.

The Lord's work in dividing the languages at Babel was to cause a natural reserve between the nations. The best way to integrate and avoid discriminatory treatment in a foreign country is to adopt their language, culture and habits. The Jews don't do this. They are just about the only nation that can ward off integration after the third generation. They talk, dress, eat and worship differently, and don't care. This riles their host nations. It also makes them easy targets.

But in the end, far from negatively treating anybody, we should remember that they are in Covenant via Abraham, and anybody who isn't careful in their treatment of a Jew, is playing with fire.

Yep, I would agree with that. I would also say the following passage has not been negated with time, replacement theology, for a nation or individual.

Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

I would also say throughout history, including today, whatever country(s) the Jews migrated to, they were industrious and prospered, contributed to their host nation(s), and enriched themselves, leading to jealousy, envy, strife, and antisemitism.

I have also mentioned many times, that God’s chosen people are the only nationality (race) in history that was protected and did not breed themselves out with the Gentiles throughout the centuries.

I would also say this is not antiquated either:

Psalm 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.

[AdHoc]

On 11/10/2023 at 11:12 AM, Diaste said:

If it's two incomparable actions separated by a millennia, then it's not a problem. 

 

Yes. I make the assumption the context, as well as the persons involved, make all the difference in  category. 

But where do we draw a line? I can see 'sand of the seashore' as a metaphor, and the 'four corners of the earth'. I can also see 'marching across the broad expanse of the earth' doesn't mean 'every square foot' or 'aimless wandering'. 

Satan released is a fact, the deception is fact, Gog and Magog are very real even if the identity may be metaphoric, surrounding the city is fact. 

I don't see fire coming down from heaven and consuming as dwelling solely in the metaphorical realm since God has sent fire from heaven that consumed wood, stones, flesh, water and dust. 

 

But if it's understood that Eze 38 is an earlier time, the issue is solved. I see enough evidence to warrant that conclusion.

True, but there is more surrounding Gog and the nations in Eze 38 leading me to conclude it's not the same as Gog after the millennium.

Okay. Thanks for your reply. I respect your version of things, even if I can't see it myself.

I see two big battles;
- One at the end of this age in which Christ fights and meets the armies of Beast. The purpose of this battle of Armageddon is Christ replacing Gentile government of the earth with His Kingdom.

- One at the end of the next age when Christ's Kingdom must be tested. The antagonists are God and Magog. The purpose of the first 1,000 years of Christ's reign is to subdue God's enemies (1st Cor.15:24-28). Magog's rebellion will produce a huge slaughter. So the last enemy is death. This is overcome by the resurrection of "the rest of the dad". Christ can only then present His father with a subdued earth - the task originally given to the first Adam (Gen.1:26-28).

I find neither mention nor purpose for Magog at the end of this age. But I could have missed something.

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Okay. Thanks for your reply. I respect your version of things, even if I can't see it myself.

I see two big battles;
- One at the end of this age in which Christ fights and meets the armies of Beast. The purpose of this battle of Armageddon is Christ replacing Gentile government of the earth with His Kingdom.

Yes. I'm comparing Eze 38 Gog of Magog with Armageddon. The symmetry between Armageddon and Gog consumed after the 1000 years, in terms of the identity is sublime, meaning it's iterations of the same enemy. It's always the same enemy.

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

- One at the end of the next age when Christ's Kingdom must be tested. The antagonists are God and Magog. The purpose of the first 1,000 years of Christ's reign is to subdue God's enemies (1st Cor.15:24-28). Magog's rebellion will produce a huge slaughter. So the last enemy is death. This is overcome by the resurrection of "the rest of the dad". Christ can only then present His father with a subdued earth - the task originally given to the first Adam (Gen.1:26-28).

Agree.

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I find neither mention nor purpose for Magog at the end of this age. But I could have missed something.

I find the parallel interesting. Both are attacks on Jerusalem, directly confronting the Most High God, for the purpose of annihilation, usurping the authority of the Most High. I find then the same lineage is not out of order, or perhaps Gog of Magog is a metaphor for the global troops of the enemy of God.

[Last Daze]

On 11/13/2023 at 4:08 AM, Diaste said:

I find the parallel interesting. Both are attacks on Jerusalem, directly confronting the Most High God, for the purpose of annihilation, usurping the authority of the Most High. I find then the same lineage is not out of order, or perhaps Gog of Magog is a metaphor for the global troops of the enemy of God.

Tend to agree with this, also that the enemies of God are both spiritual and natural.  Maybe like Gog and Magog.