The Rapture will happen in the middle of the Tribulation

[WilliamL]

3 hours ago, Keras said:

Another direct contradiction; of the Words of Jesus; No one goes to heaven, except for the One who came from there. John 3:13

You've misquoted the scripture here, which reads “No one has ascended/gone up to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man, the one being in heaven."

Now, there is a big difference between this perfect active indicative verb, which speaks of a past voluntary action by the subject, and a being caught up, which speaks of a passive action done to someone.

To state it more simply: the Lord could and did ascend and descend upon his own volition; whereas those raptured are caught up due to the volition of God. Big difference.

3 hours ago, Keras said:

You make a seriously wrong assumption to say the people described in Revelation 7, are in heaven. That scripture never mentions heaven, but it sets an earthly scene, which does not change location. 

False. The scene is of people "before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His sanctuary." 7:14

This throne of God is "in heaven" (Rev. 4:2): never is it said to be on earth anywhere within chapters 4 - 19. Likewise for the naos/sanctuary (generally poorly translated 'temple').
 

Edited December 5, 2023 by WilliamL

[Keras]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

You've misquoted the scripture here, which reads “No one has ascended/gone up to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man, the one being in heaven."

My Revised English Bible, a modern translation from hundreds of ancient documents, says: No one has gone up into heaven, except for the One who came down from there. 

It may be your desire to ascend to heaven, but God has the final say and for Him to take humans to that Spiritual place, is simply impossible. 

We pray for Gods Kingdom to come; NOT that we go to it. 

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The scene is of people "before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His sanctuary." 7:14

Revelation 7:15-17 is a Prophecy about the Eternal state. Proved by how God will wipe away every tear; Revelation 21:4

Gods Throne CAN be seen on the earth, if God wills it. 

[Paul River]

8 hours ago, Keras said:

Another direct contradiction; of the Words of Jesus; No one goes to heaven, except for the One who came from there. John 3:13

You make a seriously wrong assumption to say the people described in Revelation 7, are in heaven. That scripture never mentions heaven, but it sets an earthly scene, which does not change location. 

The operative term in John 3:13 is no one "has ascended' (past tense), so it certainly does not apply here.

And all of Revelation 7 is in the setting of Heaven!

1) John is in the spirit, in Heaven Rev 4:1
2) The angel that instructed the other angels at the four corners of the earth ascended to heaven Rev 7:2
3) The 144,000 are sealed in heaven as they, "had been purchased from the earth" and they are "first fruits to God and to the Lamb" Rev 14:3, 4
4) The a great multitude which no one could count, is in heaven because they are, "standing before the throne and before the Lamb" Rev 7:9, they serve Him day and night in His temple and who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them" Rev 7:15

[Mr. M]

23 minutes ago, Keras said:

My Revised English Bible, a modern translation from hundreds of ancient documents, says: No one has gone up into heaven, except for the One who came down from there. 

It may be your desire to ascend to heaven, but God has the final say and for Him to take humans to that Spiritual place, is simply impossible. 

We pray for Gods Kingdom to come; NOT that we go to it. 

Revelation 7:15-17 is a Prophecy about the Eternal state. Proved by how God will wipe away every tear; Revelation 21:4

Gods Throne CAN be seen on the earth, if God wills it. 

The Son of man is a spirit. He fills Ezekiel, who is then addressed throughout the document that bears his name as "son of man" some 93X.

Ezekiel 2:

1 And He said to me, “Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak to you.” 

2 Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me. 

3 And He said to me: “Son of man, I am sending you to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day. 

This is that Spirit that came down from heaven.

John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 

[R. Hartono]

On 12/4/2023 at 11:15 PM, Paul River said:

We are giving the church faults hope by suggesting we will not have to endure the Tribulation. We need to prepare for these troubled times.

Are you saying you never had any tribulation until now ? 

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/271138-the-test-of-the-wise-virgins-is-right-now-but-the-test-of-the-foolish-is-later/

 

[Keras]

The Alternative to a rapture

Firstly; the general definition of a ‘rapture’, means being taken to live in heaven. This is believed by many, to happen before the Lord punishes the world and destroys His enemies.                                                                                                    But scripture does not clearly say that anyone will be taken to heaven, excepting for the two Witnesses, Revelation 11:12, who are the last of the Christian martyrs killed for their faith during the 42 month period when Satan has world control.

  The belief in a general rapture can only be made by inference and assumption. It has gained wide acceptance because it’s the easy way out.  We must discard any pretentious ideas of escape and removal from the earth. That idea directly opposes the Great Commission and the Words of Jesus where He says that it is impossible for humans to go to heaven. John 3:13, John 17:15, Revelation 2:25

So: what are God’s Plans for His faithful people?  

We live today, in a time of worldwide unrest and change, especially in the Middle East region. Many Bible Prophecies tell us that the Lord will clear and cleanse the Holy Land. Deuteronomy 32:34-43. Zephaniah 1:14-18, 2 Peter 3:7

This dramatic event, the Lord’s terrible day of vengeance and wrath, will change the world. It will result in the formation of a One World Government, Daniel 7:23-24, but the Christian peoples will travel to and live in their heritage, of the entire Holy Land area, fulfilling their destiny of being Gods Light to the world and His witnesses to the nations; Isaiah 48:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27    This scenario is confirmed by Isaiah 35…by the Way of Holiness….those people the Lord has redeemed, will enter Zion, with praise and thanksgiving, And in Romans 9:24-26, we Christians will be told: we are the children of the Living God, in the very same place as ancient Israel was rejected. Psalms 37:29, +

Friends and brethren, we look forward to an amazing future, where we can be a part of Gods wonderful Plan for His faithful peoples and enjoy His Blessings as we live in peace and prosperity under His protection. Ezekiel 38 & 39 demonstrate how the Lord will protect us from enemies.

When Jesus Returns, then the Prophecy in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 will take place. Those Christians who have proved their faith will meet Jesus in the air then be transported to Jerusalem, where He will be for the Millennium.

Keraz

 

   

[Paul River]

6 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The harvest of Rev. 14 is not the rapture. The rapture is the firstfruits, not the main harvest of wheat and grapes seen in Rev. 14. Explained in detail here:

56. The Firstfruits and the Harvest 2.0; Part 1

An upgrade of article #24. Explains the prophetic application of OT laws about the firstfruits, the firstborn, and the full harvest, as these laws relate to the End Times. https://worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2686-the-firstfruits-and-the-harvest-20-part-1/

57. The Firstfruits and the Harvest 2.0; Part 2 https://worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2687-the-firstfruits-and-the-harvest-20-part-2/

Thank you for your contribution, William, but the connections you are making to Firstfruits are too esoteric and share no real connections to the text here in Revelation 14. Messiah is the first-fruits 1Co 15:20, as are the 144,000 Rev 14:4 but the harvest of Revelation 14:14-20 is the application of the Wheat and the Tares of Matthew 13:24-30, and a result of Messiah's second coming Revelation 14:1. 

[Retrobyter]

7 minutes ago, Keras said:

The Alternative to a rapture

Firstly; the general definition of a ‘rapture’, means being taken to live in heaven.

Shalom, Keras.

No, it does not. The word "rapture" comes from the Latin word "rapiemur" which was used to translate the Greek word "harpageesometha" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, translated into English (KJV) as "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." The word means "to seize" or "to snatch away." The destination is NOT implied! The word "up" does NOT even exist in the verse! It was SUPPLIED by the translators, trying to make it "better understood."

Kefa' ("Peter") said, 

Acts 2:29-36 (KJV)

29 "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before(hand) spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS soul was not 'left in hell,' neither 'his flesh did see corruption.' 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself,

"'The LORD (G-D the Father)said unto my Lord ("my Sire," a reference to the Messiah), "Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool."'
(Psalm 110:1)

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Kefa' said this AFTER the Resurrection of the Messiah and AFTER His Ascension! If the Messiah took anyone with Him to "Heaven," HE MISSED TAKING DAVID!

ALL we know from 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is that, once we've met the Lord Yeeshuwa` in the air, we will stay with Him wherever He goes. But, WHY WOULD HE RETURN TO HEAVEN? He JUST GOT BACK TO EARTH! And, He's got a JOB TO DO! He will be rescuing His people, the children of Israel, particularly the Jews, from an attempted genocide!

 

[Keras]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

No, it does not

Maybe in a scholarly definition, it doesn't. But in general understanding among Christians, 'rapture does mean being taken to heaven. 

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

ALL we know from 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is that, once we've met the Lord Yeeshuwa` in the air, we will stay with Him wherever He goes. But, WHY WOULD HE RETURN TO HEAVEN? He JUST GOT BACK TO EARTH! And, He's got a JOB TO DO! He will be rescuing His people, the children of Israel, particularly the Jews, from an attempted genocide!

I agree, as you would see in the last paragraph of my post above. 

What Paul prophesies in 1 Thess 4:16-17, is a transportation within the earths atmosphere. In Acts 8:39, Philip did it to show how God can do it for us. 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Paul River said:

Thank you for your contribution, William, but the connections you are making to Firstfruits are too esoteric and share no real connections to the text here in Revelation 14. Messiah is the first-fruits 1Co 15:20, as are the 144,000 Rev 14:4 but the harvest of Revelation 14:14-20 is the application of the Wheat and the Tares of Matthew 13:24-30, and a result of Messiah's second coming Revelation 14:1. 

Shalom, Paul River.

Not so, brother. If one will look carefully at Matthew 13:24-30, and the explanation the Messiah makes of it in verses 36-43, one will find that the "tares" come OUT OF HIS KINGDOM, which doesn't begin until the Messiah's second coming! Revelation 20:4-6 FOLLOW Revelation 14:1. The "harvest" of Matthew 13 comes AFTER the Millennium, at the Great White Throne Judgment! It is then that the "wheat" are ushered into the FATHER'S Kingdom in Revelation 21!