7 Churches in Revelation

[Charlie744]

In the beginning of Daniel, God reveals the physical  / time structure for all of the prophecies that will take place. In this book it is the 4 physial kingdoms. Within these 4 kingdoms the Jewish people will travel through them and God will reveal His prophecies as they relate to His people.

In the beginning book of Revelation, I see that God quickly introduces us to the 7 churches. I am thinking these 7 churchs may reveal the time period this book will cover (first church after the cross) t0 the final church (today). Within those churches God will provide us with those actors and events that play a part in His plan of salvation -no differnt than what He did in Daniel. 

In Daniel the chapter 2 four kingdom structure is given but He will use different symbols and expand on the prophetic events throughout the later chapters. 

Could these 7 churches serve as the "structure" where the remaining chapters in Revelation are placed? I have a feeling the 7 seals, 7 trumpets and the 7 bowls might be 3 different views that take place during these 7 churches...?

Any thoughts?

[douggg]

54 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Could these 7 churches serve as the "structure" where the remaining chapters in Revelation are placed? I have a feeling the 7 seals, 7 trumpets and the 7 bowls might be 3 different views that take place during these 7 churches...?

Any thoughts?

The three basic books of reference for the latter days are:

(1)  the chapters in Daniel that have latter days, time of the end in them.    

(2) Ezekiel 39

(3) Matthew 24:15-31

(4) Revelation 6-19

The timeline framework which all of the events will fit into is Ezekiel 39.   Start in upper left corner and follow the arrow to lower right corner, of this chart I made.

 

Here are the events filled into that framework.    Just follow the red line from upper left corner to lower right corner.     Each event is noted with the appropriate reference scripture(s).

 

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by douggg

[Charlie744]

12 minutes ago, douggg said:

The three basic books of reference for the latter days are:

(1)  the chapters in Daniel that have latter days, time of the end in them.    

(2) Ezekiel 39

(3) Matthew 24:15-31

(4) Revelation 6-19

The timeline framework which all of the events will fit into is Ezekiel 39.   Start in upper left corner and follow the arrow to lower right corner, of this chart I made.

 

Here are the events filled into that framework.    Just follow the red line from upper left corner to lower right corner.     Each event is noted with the appropriate reference scripture(s).

 

 

I do not believe this addressed my question. But I did look at your chart here the other day and there is not much that I agree with. 

I would like to stay on this topic - try and establish a "big picture" of "structure" for Revelation before I go into the details, but I will make a comment on your chart (that you will not agree with, and that is okay).

1) the little horn of Daniel 7,8 and 11 is the papacy,

2)Verse 9:27 "he" at the beginning is the Messiah,

3) Verse 8:11 is not an end time event. This represents the crucixion of the Messiah when His death would eliminate any further need for the daily sacrifices (animals within the Levitival ceremonies). His cross would also "cast the sanctuary" to the ground. This does not speak to the physical sanctuary  - His death has made the sanctuary spiritually unnecessary. It has fulfilled its mission. It is being "cast down or away" since it no longer will contain the presence of God.

4) Daniel 12:11-12 also takes place at the time of the Messiah,

5) Daniel 12:1 - true end of time,

6) Daniel 8:11-14  are all events that will take place during the last week of Daniel's 70 weeks of years prophecy in chapter 9.

I am trying to put together the big picture (on the outside of the box, if you will) for Revelation before I try and place the 1000 pieces in the puzzle box. This is why I want to understand how others view the 7 letters at the beginning of Revelation.

 

 

 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

In the beginning of Daniel, God reveals the physical  / time structure for all of the prophecies that will take place. In this book it is the 4 physial kingdoms. Within these 4 kingdoms the Jewish people will travel through them and God will reveal His prophecies as they relate to His people.

In the beginning book of Revelation, I see that God quickly introduces us to the 7 churches. I am thinking these 7 churchs may reveal the time period this book will cover (first church after the cross) t0 the final church (today). Within those churches God will provide us with those actors and events that play a part in His plan of salvation -no differnt than what He did in Daniel. 

In Daniel the chapter 2 four kingdom structure is given but He will use different symbols and expand on the prophetic events throughout the later chapters. 

Could these 7 churches serve as the "structure" where the remaining chapters in Revelation are placed? I have a feeling the 7 seals, 7 trumpets and the 7 bowls might be 3 different views that take place during these 7 churches...?

Any thoughts?

I don't know, is this seat mentioned in one of the seven churches the same seat mentioned elsewhere?

For example the church of Pergamos it says

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, 
and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

It speaks of where Satan's seat as being there, and then of course the dragon (which is the devil and Satan) gives his seat to this beast

Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

And then a vial gets poured upon the seat of the beast

Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Like trying to find a thread between them or something?

[douggg]

54 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I do not believe this addressed my question.

Charlie, you were speaking about structure for the rest of Revelation when you wrote... 

"Could these 7 churches serve as the "structure" where the remaining chapters in Revelation are placed?"

 Then you asked for comments.

And I commented that the bulk of the rest of Revelation, chapters 6-19, are for the latter days, when Jesus will return.

And I provide the structural framework of Ezekiel 39, in the form of a timeline chart, of when those events in Revelation, chapters 6-19 will take place.

 

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

I am trying to put together the big picture (on the outside of the box, if you will) for Revelation before I try and place the 1000 pieces in the puzzle box. This is why I want to understand how others view the 7 letters at the beginning of Revelation.

Charlie, the messages to the 7 church's are a part of the 1000 pieces.   The big picture is Jesus is Returning and there are events to take place right before then in Revelation 6-19.

You have not gotten to the big picture chapters yet.    Wait till you get through Revelation 6-19 before attempting to present the big picture. 

[Charlie744]

10 minutes ago, douggg said:

Charlie, you were speaking about structure for the rest of Revelation when you wrote... 

"Could these 7 churches serve as the "structure" where the remaining chapters in Revelation are placed?"

 Then you asked for comments.

And I commented that the bulk of the rest of Revelation, chapters 6-19, are for the latter days, when Jesus will return.

And I provide the structural framework of Ezekiel 39, in the form of a timeline chart, of when those events in Revelation, chapters 6-19 will take place.

 

Perhaps I failed to ask my question correctly.

if the 7 churches are the structure, then where or if, do the other verses fall. Where might the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, the 7 bowls fall in. 
Like Daniel, the latter verses are not meant or speak chronologically. For example, verses 2:41-43 fall within the 4th kingdom. They are a result of the cross, but within the early church period of the 4th kingdom.
 
I am just looking to see if anyone has identified the structure of the verses in Revelation. 
 

In most of the chapters in Daniel, Gabriel will give Daniel the “big picture”  - like the 4 kingdoms in chapter 2. He will then continue to give Daniel the activities or events that will take place within those kingdoms. 
 

I would not be surprised if Revelation has a similar structure (just within Revelation). 
 

 

[douggg]

4 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Perhaps I failed to ask my question correctly.

if the 7 churches are the structure, then where or if, do the other verses fall. Where might the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, the 7 bowls fall in. 
Like Daniel, the latter verses are not meant or speak chronologically. For example, verses 2:41-43 fall within the 4th kingdom. They are a result of the cross, but within the early church period of the 4th kingdom.
 
I am just looking to see if anyone has identified the structure of the verses in Revelation. 
 

In most of the chapters in Daniel, Gabriel will give Daniel the “big picture”  - like the 4 kingdoms in chapter 2. He will then continue to give Daniel the activities or events that will take place within those kingdoms. 
 

I would not be surprised if Revelation has a similar structure (just within Revelation). 
 

Charlie, begin to make yourself a timeline of latter days events that will lead up to Jesus's Return.

The timeline will present the big picture for yourself and others, when you are all done.

Edited December 8, 2023 by douggg

[Charlie744]

Just now, douggg said:

Charlie, the messages to the 7 church's are a part of the 1000 pieces.   The big picture is Jesus is Returning and there are events to take place right before then in Revelation 6-19.

You have not gotten to the big picture chapters yet.    Wait till you get through Revelation 6-19 before attempting to present the big picture. 

So you believe the 7 churches are not a structural section of Revelation… it may not be a good way of trying to explain this but it might be viewed like an org. Chart. 
 

The 7 churches on the top level and the “detail” verses have to be identified as to where they are meant to fall under. 
 

Even without understanding Revelation, I cannot imagine there are 1000 pieces of the puzzle. There is a structure to the way God presents His story. 
 

Because Daniel is the key to Revelation, I am expecting at least 2 things:

1) there will be the same symbolism found,

2) there maybe the same structural framework. 
 

 

[Charlie744]

7 minutes ago, douggg said:

Charlie, begin to make yourself a timeline of latter days events that will lead up to Jesus's Return.

The timeline will present the big picture for yourself and others, when you are all done.

I don’t think Revelation had a timeline as others think. I think most of Revelation is looking back as Daniel was looking forward. Most, if not all have Daniel taking place at the end times ( I think that is also your view). But to me, almost all of Daniel has already taken place.

Of course, there will be true end time events, but they focus on the spiritual war between God’s kingdom that He set up on earth and the little horn who will / has done everything he could to go against Him. He has preached a false gospel and has steered billions from salvation. 
 

So, I am hoping to find a similar structure to that of Daniel. One can take all the “detail” verses and plug them under or within each of the 4 kingdoms. 
 

If the 7 churches are acting in the same capacity as the 4 churches in Daniel, then I would like to know if anyone had “tagged” or identified those “interpretation like verses” to each church.

I don’t believe the above will make much sense since everyone seems to view Daniel in a truly chronological manner.