Rev 16:18 suggests the earth is much older than Adam/Eve

[FreeGrace]

39 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Has it occurred to you that you are writing this in English?

Gee whiz!  No!  I thought we were conversing in ancient Hebrew.  Who knew!!

Seriously?

39 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Has it further occurred to you that it requires a translation from Hebrew to English?

You are asking really silly questions.

39 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Have you considered that the translation you seem to prefer requires that the Fourth Commandment be false because God said He created the heaven and the earth in six days?

2 errors here.  First error is that I accept the literal Hebrew, which the usual English doesn't convey, by comparing how the words are used elsewhere, which your extreme bias rejects.  

Second error is that the 4th commandment DOESN'T say "create", which is 'bara' in the Hebrew and found in Gen 1:1, but rather it says "made", which is 'asah' in the Hebrew and used for making Adam's physical body.  

39 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  As Christians we are to follow the teachings of Christ.  Please show me where Christ told us that the Fourth Commandment wasn't correct

Why would He say that?  What is incorrect is the lousy translation of it.  What it says in the Hebrew is correct.

39 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

 that God was referencing a re-do and not the original creation?  I must have missed that part.

You certainly HAVE missed that part.  By rejecting the literal Hebrew, which I've shared over and over.  But your bias keeps you from the truth.

[FreeGrace]

12 hours ago, dad2 said:

I said:

Original Word: καταρτίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katartizó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ar-tid'-zo)
Definition: to complete, prepare
Usage: (a) I fit (join) together; met: I compact together, (b) act. and mid: I prepare, perfect, for his (its) full destination or use, bring into its proper condition (whether for the first time, or after a lapse).

2675 katartízō (from 2596 /katá, "according to, down," intensifying artizō, "to adjust," which is derived from 739 /ártios, "properly adjusted") – properly, exactly fit (adjust) to be in good working order, i.e. adjusted exactly "down" to fully function.

This word is actually translated as "restored" twice in the NT.  

Gal 6:1 - Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.

2 Peter 5:10 - And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

Applying the word to man is different than to God in creation. Man does not create! A total hack job in the quest to get your long ages that never existed.

You are just too stubborn to accept FACTS.  There is no "rule" about how to translate words that apply to God vs man.  Just more opinion, and without evidence.

Mark 1:19 - And going on a little farther, he saw James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, who were in their boat mending the nets.

Are you going to DENY that "mending" here doesn't mean restore?  Same Greek word.  If you did your homework, you would know these things.

Heb 11:3 uses 'katartizo' regarding Genesis 1.  Mark 1:19 uses the word to describe what the disciples did to their fishing nets.

FACT.

[dad2]

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Only in poorly translated English translations.  I know what the literal Hebrew says and means.  The literal Hebrew are God's literal words.

Whatever words are used to describe that time on the first day of creation when the world had no light or land or life really does not matter. You want to take a word or words describing that time to apply to some alternate universe with a world that was destroyed for no apparent reason and God had to redo. That is fantasy.

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 The word 'katartizo' means what it means, regardless of the context.  Or prove otherwise.

Let's put that to bed.

 

Strong's #2675: katartizo (pronounced kat-ar-tid'-zo)

 

from 2596 and a derivative of 739; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust:--fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect(-ly join together),

Strong's #2675: katartizo (pronounced kat-ar-tid'-zo)

 

from 2596 and a derivative of 739; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust:--fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect(-ly join together), prepare, restore.

So as we can see it can be applied in several ways. You want to obsess on one way that does not fir creation in six days. That is not wisdom or understanding or context or respecting the rest of the bible
 

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 Your real problem is an old earth.  Why?

I have no problem with made up delusions. Kind of like flies, they just need swatting.

 

[dad2]

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This is tantamount to saying, "My mind is made up, so don't confuse me with the FACTS".

No it is saying and in my last post proving that the word you obsess on has many applications, most of which fit the six day creation perfectly.

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That isn't logical or reasonable.  There is NO reason to accept "formless and void"

I think most of us get the idea whatever words we choose to use. The first day of creation God created a planet that needed to be worked on more. A lot. Now if you want to call that a tomato or whatever, fine. A rose is a rose is a rose. The world on that first day of creation still had other days of creating to make it perfect and habitable etc. What God did, He did in six days we are told. You want it all to be finished in twp seconds on day one. Sorry, your inserted old ages and imaginary destruction of the world and calling creation week some mickey mouse restoration project.

Edited March 2, 2024 by dad2

[dad2]

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You are just too stubborn to accept FACTS.  There is no "rule" about how to translate words that apply to God vs man.  Just more opinion, and without evidence.

Yes there is a rule. Having His spirit and not opposing the rest of the bible! I am not the one harping on some perceived bad translation here if you notice. That would be you.

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Mark 1:19 - And going on a little farther, he saw James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, who were in their boat mending the nets.

As I showed in posting the definition of the word it can mean several things. In the context of men repairing a net, the nets were not useful for their purpose. The earth on day one also was not useful for the purpose God was working towards. If men arrived there by spaceship that day (assuming they had radar and could find it in the dark) they would find heaven knows what kind of atmosphere. They would find no land. No place to land! They would find no life at all. No moon or sun. Now if they came a few days later, boom. A paradise!

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

Whatever words are used to describe that time on the first day of creation when the world had no light or land or life really does not matter.

This is where we are so different.  I am convinced that EVERYTHING in the Bible matters.  And the Holy Spirit inspired EVERY word in the original language.  So it's really odd that you show such indifference to the literal Hebrew.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

You want to take a word or words describing that time to apply to some alternate universe with a world that was destroyed for no apparent reason and God had to redo. 

I've never ever said anything about an "alternate universe", which only proves that you STILL aren't reading accurately, or at all.  

One universe, created in v.1, including one earth.  In v.2 the literal Hebrew says the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland, so OBVIOUSLY God didn't create the earth that way.  Maybe you think God is a kind of sloppy Creator.  That would be another big difference between us.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

That is fantasy.

Your fav translation about "formless and void" is the total fantasy, since we know how "tohu wabohu" is used in the only other 2 verses in the OT, which is a description of total destruction of land.  So "tohu wabohu" cannot under any circumstances be used to describe original creation.  More fantasy.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

Strong's #2675: katartizo (pronounced kat-ar-tid'-zo)

from 2596 and a derivative of 739; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust:--fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect(-ly join together),

Strong's #2675: katartizo (pronounced kat-ar-tid'-zo)from 2596 and a derivative of 739; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust:--fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect(-ly join together), prepare, restore.
So as we can see it can be applied in several ways. You want to obsess on one way that does not fir creation in six days. That is not wisdom or understanding or context or respecting the rest of the bible

Since you've taken time to look at the Greek word in Heb 11:3, please pluck it into the verse and tell me what you believe the verse is saying.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

I have no problem with made up delusions.

Seems you have a real problem with the literal Hebrew, which creates a contradiction with most English translations of Gen 1:2.

Also, the common translation of 1:2 is in direct contradiction with Isa 45:18, which seems to bother you none at all.

I'll never ever be comfortable with any contradiction in the Bible.  Another very big difference between us.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

This is tantamount to saying, "My mind is made up, so don't confuse me with the FACTS".

No it is saying and in my last post proving that the word you obsess on has many applications, most of which fit the six day creation perfectly.

That words have various applications is common knowledge, so don't throw your shoulder out when you pat yourself on the back.  But there is NO EXCUSE for "formless and void" in Gen 1:2, since the 2 Hebrew words are ONLY used for describing total destruction of land in the only other 2 uses.

What you intentionally ignore is context.  And the 2 other passages that have "tohu wabohu" are about the total destruction of land, so trying to use them for describing creation is the fantasy.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

I think most of us get the idea whatever words we choose to use.

I'm talking about the literal Hebrew, and I've proved that "tohu wabohu" cannot under any circumstances be used to describe creation, since the other 2 occurrences both describe the total destruction of land.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

The first day of creation God created a planet that needed to be worked on more. A lot.

Wow.  You really don't have much confidence in Creator God, if you really believe that fantasy.  God is more than able to speak the entire universe into existence, without ANY more fiddling.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

The world on that first day of creation still had other days of creating to make it perfect and habitable etc.

See?  You don't think God was able to create the earth perfect in a moment of speaking.  I side with Psa 33:6 and 9 and I know He spoke a perfect world into existence in a moment.  The 6 days follow the literal Hebrew description of total destruction of land.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

What God did, He did in six days we are told.

This is one of a few correct statements in your posts.  He He restored the earth in 6 literal days.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

You want it all to be finished in twp seconds on day one.

I only want to understand what Moses wrote.  ie:  literal Hebrew.  And I know from Psa 33:6,9 that God is perfectly capable of speaking the entire universe and earth into existence in a moment.  It is real sad that any believer wouldn't agree.

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

Sorry, your inserted old ages and imaginary destruction of the world and calling creation week some mickey mouse restoration project.

There you go again, dishonoring the literal Hebrew that Moses wrote.  So you think he was imagining things when he wrote Genesis 1?  That's pathetic if you do.

He was inspired by the Holy Spirit, so your words also dishonor the Holy Spirit, who directed Moses to write those words.

Seems you are in a really dark place.  

[dad2]

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This is where we are so different.  I am convinced that EVERYTHING in the Bible matters.  And the Holy Spirit inspired EVERY word in the original language.  So it's really odd that you show such indifference to the literal Hebrew.

The six days is many verses. Harping on a part of one verse is not sound. Especially when what is being described was never seen by any man. So whatever it was like, the context is that is was one of six days. Lots was left to do.

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I've never ever said anything about an "alternate universe", which only proves that you STILL aren't reading accurately, or at all.  

Yes you did when talking about a world with possibly angels that supposedly preexisted the six day creation. You can't give any details because it is wholly made up.

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One universe, created in v.1, including one earth.  In v.2 the literal Hebrew says the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland, so OBVIOUSLY God didn't create the earth that way.  Maybe you think God is a kind of sloppy Creator.  That would be another big difference between us.

So this same universe (before stars and sun was created) according to you was here and occupied by unknown life forms. Then things sort of got out of control, and they destroyed God's world!? No mention of this anywhere in the bible, strange, that.

 

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Since you've taken time to look at the Greek word in Heb 11:3, please pluck it into the verse and tell me what you believe the verse is saying.

The words I bolded in the definition I posted apply.

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Also, the common translation of 1:2 is in direct contradiction with Isa 45:18, which seems to bother you none at all.

Guess I better interpret for you

Isaiah 45:18

For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; (both in day four when the stars and sun were created and in day one when heaven itself was created) God himself that formed the earth and made it; (God not only made but also formed the earth in the six days of creation) he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited:(the idea of the world was that life and man would be created here and that did not happen on day one we are told) I am the Lord ; and there is none else.

Absolutely fits with ZERO problem. Like a glove.

 

[dad2]

8 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

There you go again, dishonoring the literal Hebrew that Moses wrote.  So you think he was imagining things when he wrote Genesis 1?  That's pathetic if you do.

He was inspired by the Holy Spirit, so your words also dishonor the Holy Spirit, who directed Moses to write those words.

Seems you are in a really dark place.  

Nothing is imagined except your strange made up destruction of the world and universe on the first day of creation. On that day the world was in a dark place! Now most of us have light

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, dad2 said:

Yes there is a rule. Having His spirit and not opposing the rest of the bible!

There is no contradiction between the literal Hebrew of 1:2 with anything in the Bible.  It is the common translation of 1:2 that directly contradicts Isa 45:18, which I've showed over and over.

3 hours ago, dad2 said:

I am not the one harping on some perceived bad translation here if you notice. That would be you.

Harping?  No, that it incorrect.  I just keep reminding you of the literal Hebrew.

3 hours ago, dad2 said:

As I showed in posting the definition of the word it can mean several things. In the context of men repairing a net, the nets were not useful for their purpose.

And that is exactly my point!  The reason the earth was not useful for sustaining man is because, according to the literal Hebrew, had become an uninhabitable wasteland.

So, like the disciples restoring their nets to functional use, so God restored a wrecked earth for man's use.