Fleeing from Jesus

[Shilohsfoal]

2 hours ago, douggg said:

It says that the ones in the northern kingdom of Israel were looking for the Day of the Lord, not that it took place back then.

It then describes the day of the Lord and what takes place on the day of the Lord.Israel being exiled takes place on the day of the Lord just as zech 14 says and Mathew 8.Amos 5,Mathew 8and Zechariah 14 all agree that Israel is going into exile on the day of the Lord.

They will be kicked out for worshiping the beast.

Now we learn from scripture that God will feed the saints who preach the gospel in Israel during the tribulation.Since you believe no one in Israel will take the mark of the beast,who do you claim will feed all the people who reject Jesus and don't work for the Lord for the 42 months tribulation before Christ comes?

 

Revelation 13

¹⁶ And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

¹⁷ And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

[Tristen]

12 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

You assume people who try their best deceiving and being decieved actually believe they are deceiving .Well they are not .They believe they are doing good in Jesus name.

This is nonsensical. To 'try one's best' is to do something intentionally - applying one's "best" effort to the stated outcome (i.e. to deceive).

If someone is sincere in their own position, they may be wrong, but they are not 'trying their best to deceive'. That is a logically absurd use of words, and a patently unfair characterization.

The purpose of sincere debate is to subject the various arguments to scrutiny and examination - and thereby (ideally) move all participants towards truth. In this endeavor, only arguments matter. Characterizing those who disagree with you as deceivers is logically weak (and technically fallacious) reasoning.

There is no provision in your approach for you to be wrong (and therefore no provision for humility or correction or learning). You are simply here to lecture us from your ivory pulpit - and anyone who challenges you must therefore be a deceiver.

That is not how sincere conversations (nor debates) work.

 

12 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Mathew 24:5

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Don't assume ,learn what's going on

You mean "learn" by surrendering my thoughts to the one and only person in all of Christendom who has access to 100% truth - the great and omniscient Shilohsfoal?

Your use of Matthew 24 here is (ironically) deceptive. Your usage of this verse implies that I am denying the existence of deceivers. Yet I have not ever claimed the absence of deceivers. This verse does not address anything I've said. It is therefore not relevant to our conversation.

 

12 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

The people in the above verse are deceivng people into receiving the mark of the beast,but they don't know they are deceiving others

There is nothing in Matthew 24:5 (nor the context) to suggest this is specifically about "the mark of the beast". Nor is there anything in this passage suggesting that the deceivers "don't know they are deceiving others".

Matthew 24:4-14
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

12 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

2 Timothy 3:13

while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

So now your suggestion is that those here who disagree with you are "evildoers and impostors"?

This is yet another misuse of scripture.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

13 minutes ago, Tristen said:

This is nonsensical. To 'try one's best' is to do something intentionally - applying one's "best" effort to the stated outcome (i.e. to deceive).

If someone is sincere in their own position, they may be wrong, but they are not 'trying their best to deceive'. That is a logically absurd use of words, and a patently unfair characterization.

The purpose of sincere debate is to subject the various arguments to scrutiny and examination - and thereby (ideally) move all participants towards truth. In this endeavor, only arguments matter. Characterizing those who disagree with you as deceivers is logically weak (and technically fallacious) reasoning.

There is no provision in your approach for you to be wrong (and therefore no provision for humility or correction or learning). You are simply here to lecture us from your ivory pulpit - and anyone who challenges you must therefore be a deceiver.

That is not how sincere conversations (nor debates) work.

 

You mean "learn" by surrendering my thoughts to the one and only person in all of Christendom who has access to 100% truth - the great and omniscient Shilohsfoal?

Your use of Matthew 24 here is (ironically) deceptive. Your usage of this verse implies that I am denying the existence of deceivers. Yet I have not ever claimed the absence of deceivers. This verse does not address anything I've said. It is therefore not relevant to our conversation.

 

There is nothing in Matthew 24:5 (nor the context) to suggest this is specifically about "the mark of the beast". Nor is there anything in this passage suggesting that the deceivers "don't know they are deceiving others".

Matthew 24:4-14
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

So now your suggestion is that those here who disagree with you are "evildoers and impostors"?

This is yet another misuse of scripture.

 

When someone decieves,that's what they do.And they can be trying their best to decieve you and thinking they are doing a good work for Jesus at the same time.

 

Mathew 24:24

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

Just because you can't comprehend it doesn't mean everyone can't.

Edited January 4, 2024 by Shilohsfoal

[Tristen]

10 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

When someone decieves,that's what they do.And they can be trying their best to decieve you and thinking they are doing a good work for Jesus at the same time

Everyone who understands the English language knows that the phrase "trying their best to decieve you" means being intentionally deceptive - explicitly.

 

27 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Just because you can't comprehend it doesn't mean everyone can't.

Just because you can't adequately defend your position with rational arguments, doesn't mean you should resort to technically-irrational logic fallacies.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

30 minutes ago, Tristen said:

This is nonsensical. To 'try one's best' is to do something intentionally - applying one's "best" effort to the stated outcome (i.e. to deceive).

If someone is sincere in their own position, they may be wrong, but they are not 'trying their best to deceive'. That is a logically absurd use of words, and a patently unfair characterization.

The purpose of sincere debate is to subject the various arguments to scrutiny and examination - and thereby (ideally) move all participants towards truth. In this endeavor, only arguments matter. Characterizing those who disagree with you as deceivers is logically weak (and technically fallacious) reasoning.

There is no provision in your approach for you to be wrong (and therefore no provision for humility or correction or learning). You are simply here to lecture us from your ivory pulpit - and anyone who challenges you must therefore be a deceiver.

That is not how sincere conversations (nor debates) work.

 

You mean "learn" by surrendering my thoughts to the one and only person in all of Christendom who has access to 100% truth - the great and omniscient Shilohsfoal?

Your use of Matthew 24 here is (ironically) deceptive. Your usage of this verse implies that I am denying the existence of deceivers. Yet I have not ever claimed the absence of deceivers. This verse does not address anything I've said. It is therefore not relevant to our conversation.

 

There is nothing in Matthew 24:5 (nor the context) to suggest this is specifically about "the mark of the beast". Nor is there anything in this passage suggesting that the deceivers "don't know they are deceiving others".

Matthew 24:4-14
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

So now your suggestion is that those here who disagree with you are "evildoers and impostors"?

This is yet another misuse of scripture.

 

And just so you know. The beast not long ago mentioned putting microchips in everyone in Israel .When you see a large group of christians go in Jesus name trying their best to convince everyone in Israel to get chipped, they are actually attempting to decieve the Israelis .Now seeing they come in Jesus name,they will claim to be in Christ as  well.It doesn't matter what their intentions may be,they are trying to decieve everyone they can.

Can you not comprehend that?Is that to hard to understand?

 

 

Luke 21

⁸ And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

mark 13

⁶ For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Mathew 24

 

⁴ And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

⁵ For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

 

This is the beginning of the tribulation in Israel when them who will not worship the beast or recieve it's mark will be persecuted and killed for their testimony.

 

Luke 21

 

¹² But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

¹³ And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

¹⁴ Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

¹⁵ For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

¹⁶ And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

¹⁷ And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

 

 

 

 

But all this begins with many coming in Jesus name and deceiving other people.And if they could,they would decieve the very elect.

[Shilohsfoal]

6 minutes ago, Tristen said:

Everyone who understands the English language knows that the phrase "trying their best to decieve you" means being intentionally deceptive - explicitly.

 

Just because you can't adequately defend your position with rational arguments, doesn't mean you should resort to technically-irrational logic fallacies.

 

It's not my fault,you are not able to comprehend what others do. Some people simply worship the beast and will say anything to defend it.They don't really care about the truth and will decieve anyone they can .

Edited January 4, 2024 by Shilohsfoal

[Tristen]

1 minute ago, Shilohsfoal said:

It's not my fault,you are not able to comprehend what others do. 

This is a very good example of you trying your best to deceive.

Instead of defending your position with a rational argument, you are pretending you have won the debate by casting an aspersion against my personal ability to "comprehend".

That is not how an honest actor engages in sincere conversation.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

1 minute ago, Tristen said:

This is a very good example of you trying your best to deceive.

Instead of defending your position with a rational argument, you are pretending you have won the debate by casting an aspersion against my personal ability to "comprehend".

That is not how an honest actor engages in sincere conversation.

 

You obviously don't comprehend.

Scripture says that the saints are gathered to Jesus in the air at his coming.

Zech 14 says the occupants in Israel flee when the Lord comes to Jerusalem.

If the occupants who are fleeing belonged to Christ they would be meeting him.in the air and not fleeing.

 

So when I hear someone trying to convince everyone that these people are fleeing to Jesus only to support their view I call that being very deceitful.Not only will they not acknowledge that all the saints are already with the Lord as the scripture says,they can't even acknowledge the Jews go into exile on that day as scripture plainly says.

 

So if you want to jump in and give them a helping hand trying to decieve everyone they can with made up nonsense,your doing a great job of defending anyone who decieves.Who knows ,you may pretty good at it yourself.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

And for everyone who's actually paying attention to scripture and wants to learn from the word of God.Jesus did not tell his followers to flee to or away from him when the occupants of judea flee.He simply tells his saints to look up They don't need to flee anywhere .Just lookup.

Luke 21

²⁸ And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

 

The saints are not fleeing.They look up and they are gathered to Christ at his coming.

 

Zech 14

⁵ And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

There are no saints fleeing around on the ground .They are all with the Lord in this verse.

 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2024 by Shilohsfoal

[douggg]

5 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

It then describes the day of the Lord and what takes place on the day of the Lord.Israel being exiled takes place on the day of the Lord just as zech 14 says and Mathew 8.Amos 5,Mathew 8and Zechariah 14 all agree that Israel is going into exile on the day of the Lord.

No.

Zechariah 14 say that half of Jerusalem go into captivity, not exiled.    They will taken as hostages by the armies of the nations.   The same armies rape and pillage the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

6 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Now we learn from scripture that God will feed the saints who preach the gospel in Israel during the tribulation.Since you believe no one in Israel will take the mark of the beast,who do you claim will feed all the people who reject Jesus and don't work for the Lord for the 42 months tribulation before Christ comes?

Underground economy between believers, that breaks the laws that will be enacted by the false prophet and beast-king.    The bible does not give details to your question.