God is love

[apothanein kerdos]

Blindseeker, I'll reply to you when I get home...along with the abrasive post of the person after you.

[nebula]

Very nice of you to attack my personal beliefs,

I wasn't changing the subject - just stating my offense in your using "777" - a number used by Christians to express their faith - in your name and then calling the God of the Bible "blood-thirsty" and a "racist."

And your reaction just shows what your motive in here is about.

[EricH]

The Biblical concept of love is much different and much more abrasive.

To see how "loving" this god is, we can always look to the bible to find examples:

Leviticus 25:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses in mount Sinai, saying,

44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. 45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. 46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

So here we have this "loving" god commanding (thou shalt have) us to buy, (of them shall ye buy) sell and own each other as possessions who can be willed to our children as an inheritance. This "loving" god plainly states we can even purchase children to keep as slaves. Bondmen and bondmaids are not merely indentured servants, because they could be owned for life. This god was so "loving" that in one command he institutes not only slavery amongst people, but also race-based slavery. Given that Hebrews could not be owned for life, but could be redeemed after 6 years, while non-Hebrews could be bought and owned for life, we have two separate rules for our slaves, depending on the race of the slave. Of course, this act was not loving enough, so we also find this "loving" god telling us to not covet our slaves and to give our slaves the Sabbath day off in the ten commandments. How utterly moral and "loving" can one be? So you are most definitely correct in saying the biblical concept of this god's "love" is definitely abrasive.

We next find this "loving" god telling us to kill any children we may have who dare to talk back to us:

Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

What could possibly be more loving than that? As a matter of fact, this god is so "loving" of children, he murders them every possible chance he gets:

Genesis:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; 25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

Yes Virginia, "all inhabitants" includes defenseless little children. This "loving" god then kills all of the children of the earth, except for Noah's, in the flood story:

Genesis 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

This god so "loves" children, he even commands Abraham to kill his own son. Now that's "love:"

Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

This "loving" god then murders the first-born children of Egypt:

Exodus 12:30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.

Next, this god shows his "love" by ordering Saul to kill all of the Amalekite children:

I Samuel 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

The "loving" god of the bible is so "loving," in fact, he orders 42 children to be shredded and eaten by bears, simply for calling an old man "bald-head:"

II Kings 2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Psalms 136 even praises the "mercy" this "loving" god showed by killing defenseless children:

Psalms 136:10 To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:

This "loving" god even describes the happiness one can find by throwing babies against rocks:

Psalms 137:9 Happy shall he be , that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

We can even look to the facts of Roman slavery as it existed when Jesus walked the earth. In Rome, slaves could not own their own children. Slaves were stripped naked and auctioned in public. Raping a slave was a property crime, a misdemeanor, since slaves were legally considered the property of the slave owner. A slave owner could not be charged with rape at all if he raped his own slaves, since slaves were his property. The conditions of slaves in Rome were so bad, that entire armies beaten by the Romans would commit wholesale suicide on the battlefield, rather than be taken and held as slaves in Rome. Yet, nowhere in the New Testament do you hear Paul speak out against the evils of slavery as practiced in Rome. Paul actually tells one slave to go back to his master instead. Nowhere in the New Testament will you find Jesus speaking so much as a single word against the slavery of Rome. Because you see, such a "loving" god knew that money-changers in the temple were so much more important than slaves being raped or armies committing suicide to avoid becoming slaves in Rome.

Now, I am not a god by any means. I am merely a human being who has made mistakes throughout my life. Yet, in the midst of my mistakes and the arguments I have had with other people I have known, not once have I killed the children of those I have opposed. Not once have I commanded that defenseless children should be murdered. Not once have I ever suggested that children who curse their parents should be put to death. Not once have I ever ordered other people to buy, sell and own human beings, including little children, as possessions which could be owned for life. Never would I order bears to rip 42 little children to pieces simply because they called an old man bald-head. Nor would I ever suggest one could find happiness in this life by dashing defenseless infants against rocks.

It appears my ideas of love for humanity differ greatly from the "love" shown by the god of the bible. I hope there are many others here who agree. If the "loving" god of the bible were a human on this earth and committed the acts described above, I would hope we as humans would lock him up and throw away the key for the evil nature of the "love" this god has shown.

Are you asking this question out of intellectual curiosity, or has something happened in you life personally that has caused you to wrestle with the nature of God's love and how it works? I am asking because i want to make sure I answer the right question.

[Guest PilgrimSteve]

Hos 9:15 "All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters."

Psa 5:5 "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. 6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man."

Psa 11:5 "The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth."

PilgrimSteve

[Smalcald]

The Biblical concept of love is much different and much more abrasive.

To see how "loving" this god is, we can always look to the bible to find examples:

Leviticus 25:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses in mount Sinai, saying,

44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. 45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. 46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

So here we have this "loving" god commanding (thou shalt have) us to buy, (of them shall ye buy) sell and own each other as possessions who can be willed to our children as an inheritance. This "loving" god plainly states we can even purchase children to keep as slaves. Bondmen and bondmaids are not merely indentured servants, because they could be owned for life. This god was so "loving" that in one command he institutes not only slavery amongst people, but also race-based slavery. Given that Hebrews could not be owned for life, but could be redeemed after 6 years, while non-Hebrews could be bought and owned for life, we have two separate rules for our slaves, depending on the race of the slave. Of course, this act was not loving enough, so we also find this "loving" god telling us to not covet our slaves and to give our slaves the Sabbath day off in the ten commandments. How utterly moral and "loving" can one be? So you are most definitely correct in saying the biblical concept of this god's "love" is definitely abrasive.

We next find this "loving" god telling us to kill any children we may have who dare to talk back to us:

Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

What could possibly be more loving than that? As a matter of fact, this god is so "loving" of children, he murders them every possible chance he gets:

Genesis:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; 25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

Yes Virginia, "all inhabitants" includes defenseless little children. This "loving" god then kills all of the children of the earth, except for Noah's, in the flood story:

Genesis 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

This god so "loves" children, he even commands Abraham to kill his own son. Now that's "love:"

Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

This "loving" god then murders the first-born children of Egypt:

Exodus 12:30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.

Next, this god shows his "love" by ordering Saul to kill all of the Amalekite children:

I Samuel 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

The "loving" god of the bible is so "loving," in fact, he orders 42 children to be shredded and eaten by bears, simply for calling an old man "bald-head:"

II Kings 2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Psalms 136 even praises the "mercy" this "loving" god showed by killing defenseless children:

Psalms 136:10 To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:

This "loving" god even describes the happiness one can find by throwing babies against rocks:

Psalms 137:9 Happy shall he be , that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

We can even look to the facts of Roman slavery as it existed when Jesus walked the earth. In Rome, slaves could not own their own children. Slaves were stripped naked and auctioned in public. Raping a slave was a property crime, a misdemeanor, since slaves were legally considered the property of the slave owner. A slave owner could not be charged with rape at all if he raped his own slaves, since slaves were his property. The conditions of slaves in Rome were so bad, that entire armies beaten by the Romans would commit wholesale suicide on the battlefield, rather than be taken and held as slaves in Rome. Yet, nowhere in the New Testament do you hear Paul speak out against the evils of slavery as practiced in Rome. Paul actually tells one slave to go back to his master instead. Nowhere in the New Testament will you find Jesus speaking so much as a single word against the slavery of Rome. Because you see, such a "loving" god knew that money-changers in the temple were so much more important than slaves being raped or armies committing suicide to avoid becoming slaves in Rome.

Now, I am not a god by any means. I am merely a human being who has made mistakes throughout my life. Yet, in the midst of my mistakes and the arguments I have had with other people I have known, not once have I killed the children of those I have opposed. Not once have I commanded that defenseless children should be murdered. Not once have I ever suggested that children who curse their parents should be put to death. Not once have I ever ordered other people to buy, sell and own human beings, including little children, as possessions which could be owned for life. Never would I order bears to rip 42 little children to pieces simply because they called an old man bald-head. Nor would I ever suggest one could find happiness in this life by dashing defenseless infants against rocks.

It appears my ideas of love for humanity differ greatly from the "love" shown by the god of the bible. I hope there are many others here who agree. If the "loving" god of the bible were a human on this earth and committed the acts described above, I would hope we as humans would lock him up and throw away the key for the evil nature of the "love" this god has shown.

Right we have all of that said, and I think you need to look at what Zayit wrote, and the Jewish perspective on why those things were said.

But Jesus is God, so we have God's direct words as His revelation of grace toward all human beings. This is where we see God telling us directly to love other people, to do no violence to anyone, to love those who hate us. Christ

[Anne]

I think that the subject has strayed, i would not like this to turn into personal arguments.

[yomotalking]

I disagree that God can hate people. For one, "Esau I hated" is really too strong an interpretation. For one, Romans 9:13 is a summarized quote from Malachi 1:2 in which Esau is not hated, just turned away from. Thus the Greek application of miseo in Romans 9:13 would be properly rendered to "detested" or even better as "rejected". To hate means to be absent of love towards that person, yet we know from various scriptures that God cannot do this to His own creation, specifically those that were grafted and still bear His image.

The various scriptures of God laughing and rejoicing in someone's destruction also does not indicate that He hates them. If so, then God hates a part of the trinity (Jesus) for it says He took pleasure in the destruction of His "faithful servant" (ref. Isaiah 53). Sometimes God takes pleasure and rejoices in destruction because it leads to repentance of that person and a return to Him. When a person is destroyed he is more open to return to Christ, thus God rejoices in this fact.

This is not to say that God is not vengful and jealous, however He is those things because He loves. Love and judgement are not mutually exclusive but instead inherently tied together. The problem is we work off of the American idea of what love is which is not a biblical idea. The Biblical concept of love is much different and much more abrasive.

John 3:16 comes to mind?

using "777" in your username when you don't believe in Jesus is mockery.

And don't try to tell me you beleive in Jesus when you talk about "the God of the Bible" like that.

Errrrr...........Why? (777, I mean?)

[ruah brit]

This made me think.

Does God hate the devil...

I would say of course.

But God is love.........

So.........I don't understand.......

The answer is in these scriptures.

Joh 3

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Isa 30

12 Therefore thus says the Holy One of Israel: "Because you despise this word, And trust in oppression and perversity, And rely on them,

13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you Like a breach ready to fall, A bulge in a high wall, Whose breaking comes suddenly, in an instant.

14 And He shall break it like the breaking of the potter's vessel, Which is broken in pieces; He shall not spare. So there shall not be found among its fragments A shard to take fire from the hearth, Or to take water from the cistern."

15 For thus says the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel: "In returning and rest you shall be saved; In quietness and confidence shall be your strength." But you would not,

16 And you said, "No, for we will flee on horses"-- Therefore you shall flee! And, "We will ride on swift horses"-- Therefore those who pursue you shall be swift!

17 One thousand shall flee at the threat of one, At the threat of five you shall flee, Till you are left as a pole on top of a mountain And as a banner on a hill.

Denise

[penfold]

The love of God is not something little old me would be able to discuss in depth if I didnt know how he has worked it out in my own life.

I have to be honest some really terrible things have happened to me- I have been in an abusive relationship, my daughter was sexually abused, I have a chronic, progressive illness.

You could say God didnt love me very much to stop these bad things happening. But the thing is he has NEVER left me to face stuff alone. Actually in retrospect I wish those things hadnt happened but without them I dont think I would be where I am today.

I think we have this snuggly idea of what love is in the West and it isnt really God's idea. if you ask most people they would say love is conditional, it is a "feeling" and I'm sure sex would figure in there too.

For example I discipline my children because I LOVE them so very much I dont want them to get into dire straits later in their lives. God's love is the same he wants the best for us and he jealously guards us.

That means weird things happen sometimes that I dont really understand but I know God does and that is enough for me.

A little faith takes you a long way on this Christian journey.

[Anne]

Errrrrr.......do you guys know that this really annoys me that I have to agree with super Jew, however, hate is a very strong word, and I not sure I would connect to this discussion. I have only been learning Hebrew for quite a short time, and the strongest word I can come up with is "Disappointment"

I'm not quite as diplomatic as some but it seems that a great hurt was caused Yomo.