The Mormon Faith

[ayin jade]

Joseph Smith said:

Verily, thus saith the Lord: It is wisdom in my servant David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto the world. (Doctrine & Covenants 114:1)

This prophecy was made on April 17, 1838. David W. Patten died in October of 1838 and thus never went on a mission the following spring. False prophecy. The Lord tells us to reject the words of a false prophet.

[Smalcald]

Hey, Smallcald.

Yes, we believe the Book of Mormon is inspired by God just like the Bible. If there is a contradiction between the two, if that happens, I'm unaware of any such event, but if they did conflict, most Mormons would probably do what the Book of Mormon says. I don't know if I would, though.

And yes, we believe in continuing revelation. We have modern day prophets and apostles just like the primitive church. The Book of Amos says, "Surely the lord, thy God shall do nothing lest it be through his servants, the prophets.

Hi Piston thanks for your response and information.

I don't agree with that view, however I also don't find argument productive particularly when I am just curious, I know it is hard to come onto a board when you are in the total minority.

But I do think it is an indicator to other Christians on this board about what happens when we have two elements present, the idea that the Cannon is not closed that the Holy Bible is not complete in and of itself, and the idea that we can have on-going revelation which is equal in any way to the Holy Bible.

[piston priest]

Perhaps Joseph Smith did have a few failed prophecies, I'm not entirely sure. It doesn't necesarilly mean he was a false prophet. This is one of the instances where the Bible was incorrect; when it said that if something a prophet says does not come true, he is fake. Using this screening process, one would have to assume that Moses was a false prophet as well.

Moses prophecies that Israel will go into Exile, but that while in this Exile, if she repents, God will restore her to her land.

Deut 30:1-10, RSV,

"And when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God has driven you, and return to the Lord your God, you and your children, and obey his voice in all that I command you this day, with all your heart and with all your soul; THEN the Lord your God will restore your fortunes, and he will gather you again from all peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you...and the Lord your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, that you may possess it; and he will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live...And you shall again obey the voice of the Lord, and keep all his commandments...The Lord your God will make you abundantly prosperous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body...for the Lord will again take delight in prospering you, as he took delight in your fathers, if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul."

Moses' prophecy was not fulfilled as above portrayed. He stressed that restoration was dependent upon the nation's repentance. The books of Ezra and Nehemiah do not show the returning exiles as repentant and eager to do God's will and live by his laws. They violate the Sabbath and marry foreign women.

As Joseph Smith said, "A Prophet is only a prophet when he is acting as such. In other words, if he weren't in a spiritual mindset, he could "mishear" a prophecy.

As far as modern revelations shouldn't contradict the Bible, that is only true if the Bible is one hundred per cent perfect, which it isn't.

[Tari]

Perhaps Joseph Smith did have a few failed prophecies, I'm not entirely sure. It doesn't necesarilly mean he was a false prophet. This is one of the instances where the Bible was incorrect; when it said that if something a prophet says does not come true, he is fake. Using this screening process, one would have to assume that Moses was a false prophet as well.

Moses prophecies that Israel will go into Exile, but that while in this Exile, if she repents, God will restore her to her land.

Deut 30:1-10, RSV,

"And when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God has driven you, and return to the Lord your God, you and your children, and obey his voice in all that I command you this day, with all your heart and with all your soul; THEN the Lord your God will restore your fortunes, and he will gather you again from all peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you...and the Lord your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, that you may possess it; and he will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live...And you shall again obey the voice of the Lord, and keep all his commandments...The Lord your God will make you abundantly prosperous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body...for the Lord will again take delight in prospering you, as he took delight in your fathers, if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul."

Moses' prophecy was not fulfilled as above portrayed. He stressed that restoration was dependent upon the nation's repentance. The books of Ezra and Nehemiah do not show the returning exiles as repentant and eager to do God's will and live by his laws. They violate the Sabbath and marry foreign women.

As Joseph Smith said, "A Prophet is only a prophet when he is acting as such. In other words, if he weren't in a spiritual mindset, he could "mishear" a prophecy.

As far as modern revelations shouldn't contradict the Bible, that is only true if the Bible is one hundred per cent perfect, which it isn't.

Piston,

Do you consider the book of mormon to be 100% perfect? I know that it is a huge part of the mormon religion to believe that everything Joseph Smith taught is 100% correct. Even when they baptize people in this religion, don't your baptismal vows consist of affirming that you believe what Joseph Smith taught is 100% correct?

You mentioned above about a prophecy of Moses not being fulfilled. Now it is in no way, shape, or form, the fault of Moses, if this nation of people did not come to repentance or do the will of God in their lives. So, there is no comparison here to Moses and Joseph Smith.

Have you ever done any serious research on the Mormon beliefs? This religion along with many others, people seem to jump into blindly. People are vulnerable, and if someone comes along (a missionary for instance), it may seem very comforting at the time. Before a person may know it, they have a whole new life, along with friendships. Maybe it seemed to fill in many gaps of a persons life. What it comes down to is that, it's just a wonderful way for people to be deceived.

Do you believe, as many mormons do, that there are as many universes as there are grains of sand in the sea? Because that way of thinking begins with false teaching, and it is very wrong according to our true God. Would you ever be willing to seek yourself to find out if you have been deceived by mormonism? Have you ever sincerely prayed to the Lord God to lead you to the truth, even if it meant that you've been misled or deceived? or Possibly you have no desire no matter what, to ever question this mormon faith in any way shape or form?

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Piston,

The Scripture you quoted about Moses is incorrect in your interpretation of it.

God is Merciful. Yes they did marry foreign women and even built their own paneled houses up prior to rebuilding the House of the Lord. This prompted God to remind them why they were in the land;

Hag

Edited March 6, 2006 by Matthitjah

[ayin jade]

Deu 18:21 "You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?'

Deu 18:22 "When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

Joseph Smith spoke false prophecies. Many false ones. He claimed to speak the Lords words, yet spoke falsely. He is not a man from God.

[ayin jade]

Another false prophecy:

While discussing the petition to Congress, I prophesied, by virtue of the holy Priesthood vested in me, and in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that, if Congress will not hear our petition and grant us protection, they shall be broken up as a government, and God shall damn them, and there shall be nothing left of them

[ayin jade]

This prophecy is recorded in Doctrine & Covenants Section 111. The introduction to this prophecy, found at the beginning of Section 111 states:

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Salem, Massachusetts, August 6, 1836. HC 2:465-466. At this time the leaders of the [LDS] Church were heavily in debt due to their labors in the ministry.

1. I, the Lord your God, am not displeased with your coming this journey, notwithstanding your follies.

2. I have much treasure in this city for you, for the benefit of Zion, and many people in this city, whom I will gather out in due time for the benefit of Zion, through your instrumentality.

3. Therefore, it is expedient that you should form acquaintance with men in this city, as you shall be led, and as it shall be given you.

4. And it shall come to pass in due time that I will give this city into your hands, that you shall have power over it, insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts; and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours.

5. Concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them.

Salem did not fall into mormon hands and no treasure was ever found or given to the mormons. False prophecy.

[ayin jade]

According to the Book of Mormon, about 600 years before Christ, a Nephite prophet predicted that "many plain and precious parts" (1 Nephi 13:26-28) would be removed from the Bible.

In contrast, from the Bible it is clear that during His earthly ministry, Jesus himself constantly quoted from the Old Testament Scriptures, and showed full confidence in their completeness and accurate transmission as they had survived down to His time.

Jesus declared that "heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away" (Mark 13:31; see also Matthew 5:18), and promised His disciples who were to pen the New Testament that the Holy Ghost "shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14:26); Jesus further promised the apostles that they would "bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain" (John 15:16). These promises clearly imply that the fruit of the apostles

[Smalcald]

But how do we know Joseph Smith's prophesies and his word are wrong?

They spawned a huge religious movement, they seem to move people, certainly Mormons are right acting people, so they have a good testimony there. If the cannon is not closed and the Holy Bible is not totally complete, and on-going revelation is possible, then we have no basis whatsoever to denigrate Joseph Smith.