Who me Posted February 3 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,300 Content Per Day: 1.72 Reputation: 1,685 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted February 3 6 hours ago, Renskedejonge said: If they didn't forgive them they wouldn't pray for them That is an assumption. The words of Jesus's prayer is " Father forgive them." He is handing the task over to God the Father. We can and should pray for those who hurt or hate us, it is part of doing good to those who persecute us and there is no requirement in that to forgive them. There is a requirement for us to be open and honest with God about them and about our feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who me Posted February 3 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,300 Content Per Day: 1.72 Reputation: 1,685 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted February 3 6 hours ago, FJK said: Did not Jesus say "I and the Father are one"? Are you trying to separate them into two different entities? They are two different entities. God the Father is not God the Son just as God the Son is not God the Father. They are however one in the trinity and one in purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RdJ Posted February 4 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 66 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,093 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 612 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/11/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/25/1970 Share Posted February 4 (edited) - Edited February 4 by Renskedejonge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neighbor Posted February 4 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 953 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,579 Content Per Day: 5.03 Reputation: 9,055 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted February 4 On 2/2/2024 at 1:41 PM, D. Adrien said: But in the O.T. Israelis weren't expected to do more than the requirement of the law. It was okay to hate your neighbor, you just needed to make sure you offered up the correct sacrifice. Mat. 5,6 and 7 magnify the letter of the law and Jesus explains how the spirit of the law is to be kept moving forward. I find it hard to see room for violence, even the thinking of it. Hi, I think that under each covenant the point being made is that sin has consequence requiring God's provision for forgiveness of each sin. The sinning is a sin against God as well as it is against an individual or group of individuals. As I see it Yeshua at his sermon on the mount did not, eliminate the principles, precepts, and commands, he stepped them up a notch when he stated that even the thought of doing a sinful act is in itself a sin. That makes it absolutely impossible to be seen as perfect before God, which is the standard by Holy God who cannot abide sin. Yeshua however reconciled that which is impossible the irreconcilable. He who is perfect became all that is sin, willingly allowed himself to be the passover lamb, the perfect sacrifice for sin. Repentance is still a need in order to receive that blessing of redemption and reconciliation. For to continue on in a sin is considered to be crucifying of Yeshua again and again. Thus the lesson and warning by Paul do not sin the more so that grace may flourish all the more. It is, I think good practice for individuals to let many sins against them slide, leaving any retaliation to God. God even states our own retaliation for sin against eliminates his judging it. What Christians are to do if anything is to be done, within the body of Christ, is do it as a help as Matthew 18 instructs, and to do so for the lifting and benefitting of one who sins against another that fellowship may be restored and a good testimony be shown before the congregation, and by extension a difference in Christianity from the unsaved world at large shown to the world. In any case the Christian does not benefit from holding a grudge, plus one does great harm to self and the body of Christ if they forment any furtherance of the angst or sin against them and God by spreading discord. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Adrien Posted February 4 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 454 Content Per Day: 4.68 Reputation: 386 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/22/2024 Status: Offline Share Posted February 4 32 minutes ago, Neighbor said: Hi, I think that under each covenant the point being made is that sin has consequence requiring God's provision for forgiveness of each sin. The sinning is a sin against God as well as it is against an individual or group of individuals. As I see it Yeshua at his sermon on the mount did not, eliminate the principles, precepts, and commands, he stepped them up a notch when he stated that even the thought of doing a sinful act is in itself a sin. That makes it absolutely impossible to be seen as perfect before God, which is the standard by Holy God who cannot abide sin. Yeshua however reconciled that which is impossible the irreconcilable. He who is perfect became all that is sin, willingly allowed himself to be the passover lamb, the perfect sacrifice for sin. Repentance is still a need in order to receive that blessing of redemption and reconciliation. For to continue on in a sin is considered to be crucifying of Yeshua again and again. Thus the lesson and warning by Paul do not sin the more so that grace may flourish all the more. It is, I think good practice for individuals to let many sins against them slide, leaving any retaliation to God. God even states our own retaliation for sin against eliminates his judging it. What Christians are to do if anything is to be done, within the body of Christ, is do it as a help as Matthew 18 instructs, and to do so for the lifting and benefitting of one who sins against another that fellowship may be restored and a good testimony be shown before the congregation, and by extension a difference in Christianity from the unsaved world at large shown to the world. In any case the Christian does not benefit from holding a grudge, plus one does great harm to self and the body of Christ if they forment any furtherance of the angst or sin against them and God by spreading discord. Thank you. Forgiveness can protect against a root of bitterness as well. Trouble forgiving? Include prayers every time you pray for the person causing you problems until forgiveness is possible. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwikphilly Posted February 4 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 307 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,136 Content Per Day: 4.63 Reputation: 27,817 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 4 On 2/1/2024 at 1:14 PM, Renskedejonge said: It depends. There's also a text for the apostles. John 20 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” But I'm no apostle and I know no pharisees who sinned against the Spirit, so I just forgive everyone and if I can't I just say: I chose to forgive so and so but You do it. Pray for those who mistreat you. But I saw Jewish women who forgave Mengele. That really baffled me. He's already in hell. Maybe it was better for themselves. Sounds like you do Understand that of our own EFFORT the carnal minded man is pretty much just kidding himself- You were spot on my friend," I want to but I,I,I,I cannot..... YOU ,my Lord CAN and do so I surrender my will to the Heart &Mind of He Who Abides in me.... Praise Jesus There's so much overthinking and inserting "oneself" and " feelings" when it comes to the topic of Forgiveness ---- we must remember its really not personal,it's not about us -we all have a common enemy and it is not each other,"Forgive them,they know not what they do". And we are hated for Christ sake,offenses are not to be taken personally if you know WHO you ARE in Christ Jesus Yes,it can be hurtful when someone sins against you but that's because we are humans,our feelings get hurt- that's why we must keep our eyes on Jesus and therefore we are MORR than a Conqueror,able to do ALL things in Christ WHO Strengthens is I could wallow in self pity everyday and focus on ME and how so & so has hurt ME or I can pray for that person knowing they are being used by our common enemy to distract me from keeping my eyes on my Lord and Savior ... That's the choice,just choose to surrender your will❤️❤️❤️ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farouk Posted February 4 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 6,398 Content Per Day: 12.16 Reputation: 3,269 Days Won: 31 Joined: 11/18/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted February 4 13 hours ago, Who me said: They are two different entities. God the Father is not God the Son just as God the Son is not God the Father. They are however one in the trinity and one in purpose. @Who me Father, Son and Holy Spirit are indeed deeply present in Scripture (Matthew 28; John's Gospel; Romans 8; John's First Epistle, etc.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJK Posted February 4 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 43 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 3,349 Content Per Day: 7.92 Reputation: 1,305 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/01/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted February 4 14 hours ago, Who me said: They are two different entities. God the Father is not God the Son just as God the Son is not God the Father. They are however one in the trinity and one in purpose. So, in essence it would be the same as the right hand praying to the left hand to do something for it? I don't believe that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RdJ Posted February 4 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 66 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,093 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 612 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/11/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/25/1970 Share Posted February 4 28 minutes ago, kwikphilly said: Sounds like you do Understand that of our own EFFORT the carnal minded man is pretty much just kidding himself- You were spot on my friend," I want to but I,I,I,I cannot..... YOU ,my Lord CAN and do so I surrender my will to the Heart &Mind of He Who Abides in me.... Praise Jesus There's so much overthinking and inserting "oneself" and " feelings" when it comes to the topic of Forgiveness ---- we must remember its really not personal,it's not about us -we all have a common enemy and it is not each other,"Forgive them,they know not what they do". And we are hated for Christ sake,offenses are not to be taken personally if you know WHO you ARE in Christ Jesus Yes,it can be hurtful when someone sins against you but that's because we are humans,our feelings get hurt- that's why we must keep our eyes on Jesus and therefore we are MORR than a Conqueror,able to do ALL things in Christ WHO Strengthens is I could wallow in self pity everyday and focus on ME and how so & so has hurt ME or I can pray for that person knowing they are being used by our common enemy to distract me from keeping my eyes on my Lord and Savior ... That's the choice,just choose to surrender your will❤️❤️❤️ Yes I learned that from Corrie ten Boom. She preached in Germany after the war and after the service a man asked her to forgive him. He had been one of the cruellest gueard in the concentration camp where she and her sister were and where her sister died. She could not forgive him, so she said to God: I chose to and then He did it and she felt His love flowing through her arm when she shook his hand. But Mengele... or Hitler or the antichrist, I don't believe you have to forgive them nor pray for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJK Posted February 4 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 43 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 3,349 Content Per Day: 7.92 Reputation: 1,305 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/01/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted February 4 18 minutes ago, Renskedejonge said: But Mengele... or Hitler or the antichrist, I don't believe you have to forgive them nor pray for them. You only have authority to forgive others sins against yourself, you cannot forgive their sins against God, only God has the authority to do that. Their (or your) sins against God are only forgiven by the sinner repenting and asking forgiveness himself. This is how I understand it, I may not be fully correct about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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