Daniel 7

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

We know from Daniel 10 that these kingdoms have evil angel overlords.  The prince of Persia spawned the earthly kingdom of Persia, and likewise the prince of Greece.  Both of these princes are referenced in Daniel 10.  By extension, it's reasonable to assume that Rome had its prince too.

It might be worth considering that the fourth prince, whose first manifestation was Rome, brought us the feed of iron and clay after his release from the abyss.  Four evil angel princes yielding five earthly kingdoms.

Yes they do but the Good Lord did not mention any of them other the the two in chapter 10. There is no reason to bring in things that are not given to us in Daniel. From my point of view, God has given us so much information to establish the 4 kingdom structure in chapter 2 and reinforces it in the later chapters of Daniel. Fortunately, we have actual historical records to go along with these verses / prophecies that make it very difficult to misinterpret the number of kingdoms, the kings, the little horn, etc.

In chapter 7 Daniel will be given his own vision of the kingdom struture that is revealed - and God purposefully establishes they will come out of the sea ... It is God who will bring forward these 4 and only 4 nations / kingdoms / beasts out of the sea (nations). So the 4th beast in chapter 7 is the "indescribable" beast (pagan Rome) who succeeds Greece (not in our history books, but in God's plan of salvation). This 4th kingdom is the most important of the 4 because this is where all the prophecies (almost all) will occur and they include the complete restoration of the Jews and their city (70 weeks of years prophecy) by the 69th week. It includes the last week of the 70 weeks prophecy when the Messiah is annointed and baptized in the Jordan and begins His ministry. 

But even after the cross, the prophecy will record those events that will take place still within the 4th beast kingdom of pagan Rome. The church would begin to grow and go out into the world through the terrific Roman road system, there would be Jews who would come to accept Jesus as their Messiah and those that would reject Him. It reveals the destruction of the Temple (70 AD), it reveals how His earthly church will experience signigicant growth over the 400 years while pagan Rome will significantly decline in power. Then, pagan Rome will be slain and its body is destroyed (also chapter 7), and will be replaced by the Christian Church (the divided kingdom) headed by the little horn (bishop of Rome / pope). And it goes into quite some detail how this little horn will harm His people, His saints, and speak against God Himself. He will declare himself equal to God and infallible, forgive sin... salvation is only throught their church (not God's church).

 

Daniel is more than clear on all of these events, its actors, and the timing of all these things IF we allow ourselves to interpret Daniel using a NON-HISTORICAL APPROACH.  Daniel is not to be interpreted by comparing it to our history books - AS ALL INTEPRETERS HAVE DONE. God has selected 4 kingdoms and only these 4 kingdoms to reveal His plan of salvation for the Jews and mankind. We are to follow the Jews through these 4 kingdoms and how the verses speak to their restoration back to Jerusalem and the prophecies of their coming Messiah. Because the verses / prophecies in the later chapters of Daniel (Hebrew chapters) do not tie into our history books, all interpreters haved come to the conclusion they must not have happened yet and have thrown them 2000 years into the future. But I can assure you that Daniel in NOT an end time series of prophecies but is largely found to occue within the 70 weeks of years prophecy - 457 BC to 33/34 AD. 

The 70 weeks of years prophecy is completed / fulfilled... the last week represented the week the Messiah would arrive and be given to fulfill His mission on earth.

There is no anti-Christ figure - "He" in 9:27 is speaking about our Messiah.

There is no 7 year tribulation period coming in the future.. the Messiah confirmed the covenent (Jeremiah 31:31-34) DURING THIS LAST WEEK. There is no 7 year agreement....

Again, many of the verse in Daniel 9 have been purposely misinterpreted and thrown 2000 years into the future and have been separated from speaking about the Messiah during His last 3.5 years of the last 7 years of the prophecy. And of course, this was largely due to the little horn who created this false teaching in the 16th century.

I spent 5 years unpacking Daniel and have completed a New Interpretations on the Book of Daniel. If you have an interest, it is available on Amazon. If you find it is too expensive, then you can send me your mailing information in a PM and I will have Amazon send you an author's copy - no cost at all to your. If you find value in it, then all I would ask is for you to recommend it to your friends, colleagues, church members, etc. If you find it has no value and is no worthy of your recommendation then that is okay as well.

Thanks, Charlie

 

 

 

 

 

[Sister]

20 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

There is only 4 kingdoms not 5. The 4th kingdom is indeed Rome and it covers both the legs and the feet. It is all one METAL OF IRON. It is the type of metal and the body parts (both legs and feet), no different that the two parts of the 2nd (arms and chest) and the 3rd kingdom (thighs and belly). 

Hi Charlie

Nice to speak to you again.

I am waiting for you to really delve into the book Revelation, then hopefully you will see how it holds the key for understanding Daniel on a deeper level regarding the timing of these kingdoms. 

The book of Revelation can not be omitted in this conversation because it ties up everything nicely.

You said there is only 4 kingdoms not 5.  It depends on what chapter in Daniel we are speaking about.  The image in Dan Ch2 has 5 kingdoms starting from Babylon.

1. the head of gold

2. the arms and chest of silver

3. the belly and thighs of Brass

4. the legs of iron

5. the feet and toes of iron and clay.

Kingdom no. 5 goes through a change, because it doesn't consist of just iron now, but mixed with clay.  The iron is of Rome, and the clay of other nations. They mingle, but they don't stick (agree).  I call this kingdom reformed Rome, because I don't know what other name to give it, and this is the end time kingdom who will be ruling when Christ returns.

The other 2 kingdoms before it, Egypt and Assyria are not mentioned because they had already come and gone.  I am aware that you are not convinced of this through our earlier conversations, but please keep in mind, because we will need it later.

 

Daniel chapter 7 mentions 4 great beasts.  There have been other kingdoms throughout history, but these 4 GREAT beasts get a mention.

As I have said to you in the past, the first 3 great beasts are mentioning only the KINGS of the kingdoms which were to come after Babylon.  The nature of these first 3 kings are like a lion, a bear, and a leopard.  I explained to Marilyn quite a few times over the years who the first 3 kings represented, and provided proof, because the answer or interpretation is not in history books which we cannot rely on 100%, but in the scriptures of Daniel going here and there throughout the chapters.  Marilyn did not address the proof I provided, nor did Stormy Monday who seems to have disappeared of the face of the earth.  If we go wrong here, the whole interpretation of the kingdoms and their order in the grand scheme of things and time will get muddled up and anyone can slot anything where ever they think it goes, giving an interpretation of error.

The 4th great terrible beast in Dan Ch7 doesn't mention all the emperors of Rome, but skips time until we get to this end time reformed Rome when it's days are coming to an end. It does mention a king, and the timing of when he arises, and he is called 'the little horn', which arises during the kingdom's end coming out of the 10 toes.  This is where we need the book of Revelation.  For this kingdom of the 10 toes and this little horn will rule for only 3.5yrs, and then the end will come.  He cannot be put into the past for he is yet to come.

The book of Revelation reveals who God calls this little horn, and he calls him the False Prophet.  In 2Thessalonians ch2, he is called the man of sin, and the Son of Perdition.  It's all the same man, another king who is more fierce than all his predecessors.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Charlie744]

30 minutes ago, Sister said:

Hi Charlie

Nice to speak to you again.

I am waiting for you to really delve into the book Revelation, then hopefully you will see how it holds the key for understanding Daniel on a deeper level regarding the timing of these kingdoms. 

The book of Revelation can not be omitted in this conversation because it ties up everything nicely.

You said there is only 4 kingdoms not 5.  It depends on what chapter in Daniel we are speaking about.  The image in Dan Ch2 has 5 kingdoms starting from Babylon.

1. the head of gold

2. the arms and chest of silver

3. the belly and thighs of Brass

4. the legs of iron

5. the feet and toes of iron and clay.

Kingdom no. 5 goes through a change, because it doesn't consist of just iron now, but mixed with clay.  The iron is of Rome, and the clay of other nations. They mingle, but they don't stick (agree).  I call this kingdom reformed Rome, because I don't know what other name to give it, and this is the end time kingdom who will be ruling when Christ returns.

The other 2 kingdoms before it, Egypt and Assyria are not mentioned because they had already come and gone.  I am aware that you are not convinced of this through our earlier conversations, but please keep in mind, because we will need it later.

 

Daniel chapter 7 mentions 4 great beasts.  There have been other kingdoms throughout history, but these 4 GREAT beasts get a mention.

As I have said to you in the past, the first 3 great beasts are mentioning only the KINGS of the kingdoms which were to come after Babylon.  The nature of these first 3 kings are like a lion, a bear, and a leopard.  I explained to Marilyn quite a few times over the years who the first 3 kings represented, and provided proof, because the answer or interpretation is not in history books which we cannot rely on 100%, but in the scriptures of Daniel going here and there throughout the chapters.  Marilyn did not address the proof I provided, nor did Stormy Monday who seems to have disappeared of the face of the earth.  If we go wrong here, the whole interpretation of the kingdoms and their order in the grand scheme of things and time will get muddled up and anyone can slot anything where ever they think it goes, giving an interpretation of error.

The 4th great terrible beast in Dan Ch7 doesn't mention all the emperors of Rome, but skips time until we get to this end time reformed Rome when it's days are coming to an end. It does mention a king, and the timing of when he arises, and he is called 'the little horn', which arises during the kingdom's end coming out of the 10 toes.  This is where we need the book of Revelation.  For this kingdom of the 10 toes and this little horn will rule for only 3.5yrs, and then the end will come.  He cannot be put into the past for he is yet to come.

The book of Revelation reveals who God calls this little horn, and he calls him the False Prophet.  In 2Thessalonians ch2, he is called the man of sin, and the Son of Perdition.  It's all the same man, another king who is more fierce than all his predecessors.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is very nice! So easy to read and comprehend. 
 
There are a couple of ways we can discuss our different interpretations. However, before we might attempt that, we should easily note the things we agree on before the differences begin.

I believe we both agree that Rome (pagan or Imperial Rome) is the 4th kingdom in Daniel 2 and 7.

We both agree that the 4th kingdom will be  “divided” kingdom. 
 

We both agree that the iron in the feet represents Rome: 

We both agree that the clay is NOT Rome, but the clay is part of / integrated into / joined to or with Rome but cannot come together just as oil and water can be found in the same bowl but it will always be two distinct elements.

We both agree that the book of Daniel carries straight into Revelation.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 

Okay, now the things we may disagree (not necessarily all and please add to this list if you desire).

Your chapter 2 has 5 kingdoms. You have determined the feet and the toes are a separate kingdom BEFORE THE 4th KINGDOM IS “DIVIDED.”

My chapter 2 has 4 and treats the feet and toes as part of the 4th kingdom, BUT IT WILL BE “DIVIDED” BY A CERTAIN EVENT.

Without continuing on to discuss more of our differences, I believe this is the genesis of any and all differences that would HAVE TO COME TO BE!

So, if you agree, there are perhaps two issues that must be brought forward which drive both of our interpretations (and this does not mean other factors / verses cannot be brought into this as long as it is speaks to THESE ISSUES).

Anyway, here is what I would like us to consider:

1) what are the characteristics or attributes that God has given us to identify the kingdoms? (Please try not to consider the book of Revelation and how your interpretation must be answered to meet your interpretation in Revelation). Daniel is written for the Jews and His people and Daniel can be interpreted based on its own wording. Yes, it MUST not conflict with Revelation but Daniel is not to be interpreted based on how we interpret Revelation- becomes circular reasoning and if course, the Jews would not have access to Revelation).

2) what is the “timing” to f these 4 or 5 kingdoms? 
 

You contend the feet and toes (already separated in chapter 2 represent 2 separate entities in the far future. 
 

My opinion interpretation is that the feet and toes (part of the 4th kingdom in chapter 2), represent both pagan Rome (iron component), while the clay represents the people of Israel that are held in confinement under pagan Rome at the time of Christ.

Also, your interpretation is the toes represent 10 kingdoms or nations that come much later in the future (not sure if your interpretation says they are now here or they are still yet to come). 
 

My interpretation of the 10 toes says they were, just like the clay, also held captive by pagan Rome at the time of Christ. (But this also means the 10 toes existed BEFORE AND AFTER THE CROSS (although, AFTER the cross they would be referred to as “horns.”

That is a lot of information to consider, which is why we might limit this discussion to these few events / verses. Everything will be driven from our answers in the later chapters, and as you mentioned, if we get chapter 2 wrong, the rest of Daniel is wrong (that is soooo true).

 
I would suggest we take one of these “differences” at a time , if possible. But it usually is so difficult to restrict our comments to just one issue. 
 

If I may, how about we start with the characteristics / attributes / qualities, etc., that are found in Daniel chapter 2 only that are meant to reveal the number of kingdoms?

1) Type of metal only, (we both believe clay and the toes are different entities than Rome). This is one of my identifiers - All 4 kingdoms are differentiated by metal types and I don’t believe the clay or the toes have any relevance to the dryer of “a” kingdom.

Body parts of a man. Here God wants us to see (again, my view), the very different parts of a man divided into 4 separate groups: head, chest and arms, belly and thighs, legs and feet. The fact that clay is being contained or held captive WITHIN  the feet does not change the “body part if a man.” It simply tells us this body part of a man (kegs and feet) also includes another element within it. God will purposely include this added non-metallic element to symbolize it is NOT PART OF THE BODY PART BUT IS BEING CONTAINED WITHIN THIS BODY PART. It is not meant to be used to justify or serve as proof that another kingdom is found within this image. (If the clay was not mentioned, would you still consider the feet to be a separate kingdom from the legs?)

What is very, very difficult is to make a decision on whether there are 4 or 5 kingdoms by focusing on the “attributes/characteristics ONLY), because the “timing” of these events / actors MUST dovetail with our understanding of these inter. But we have to try.

So, please take your time to consider and offer your thoughts on the attributes / characteristics / qualities, etc., that you believe speak to a 5 kingdom image. And please feel free to comment / disagree with ANYTHING I offered. Thank you so much, Charlie 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Stormy Monday]

On 2/9/2024 at 11:26 PM, Charlie744 said:

Daniel was specifically written to the Jews

That's incorrect.  Daniel chapters 2-7 were not written in Hebrew but Aramaic which indicates they were written for gentile nations. Chapter 1 and 8-12 were written for Jews.

Quote

I do not believe anyone disagrees with that the 4 kingdoms in chapter 2 are identical to those mentioned in chapter seven.

Either you have tunnel vision or you're just not in tune.  Many people disagree.  There's no reason for Daniel to repeat the message of Daniel 2 in chapter 7 especially when there's 35 years between the two. 

People are moving away from this thinking you have.  They're beginning to see the outright obvious misinterpretations in this.

Your interpretation makes Daniel a false prophet. Why would Daniel prophesy about a kingdom RISING that has been in existence for about 50 years and soon to end?   Atheist Kyle Williams has caught onto this colossal blunder and used it to debunk the bible by calling Daniel a false prophet which he would certainly be for prophesying about a kingdom rising that's been in existence for 50 years and on its way out.

You have the word Rome or pagan Rome written all over your replies - yet you and nobody else has even quoted one verse of prophecy that specifically identifies Rome, yet you continue to believe it.

The sequence of kingdoms you describe in Daniel 2 and 7 are 100% incorrect.  I will repost some pages because I'm sick of the misinformation you're pushing here.  

ROME, ROME, ROME!
Prove it big guy by quoting one verse of prophecy that points to Rome...JUST ONE! And I'll tell you again - You cannot do it because ONE verse does NOT exist!

Edited February 15 by Stormy Monday

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Stormy Monday said:

That's incorrect.  Daniel chapters 2-7 were not written in Hebrew but Aramaic which indicates they were written for gentile nations. Chapter 1 and 8-12 were written for Jews.

Either you have tunnel vision or you're just not in tune.  Many people disagree.  There's no reason for Daniel to repeat the message of Daniel 2 in chapter 7 especially when there's 35 years between the two. 

People are moving away from this thinking you have.  They're beginning to see the outright obvious misinterpretations in this.

Your interpretation makes Daniel a false prophet. Why would Daniel prophesy about a kingdom RISING that has been in existence for about 50 years and soon to end?   Atheist Kyle Williams has caught onto this colossal blunder and used it to debunk the bible by calling Daniel a false prophet which he would certainly be for prophesying about a kingdom rising that's been in existence for 50 years and on its way out.

You have the word Rome or pagan Rome written all over your replies - yet you and nobody else has even quoted one verse of prophecy that specifically identifies Rome, yet you continue to believe it.

The sequence of kingdoms you describe in Daniel 2 and 7 are 100% incorrect.  I will repost some pages because I'm sick of the misinformation you're pushing here.  

ROME, ROME, ROME!
Prove it big guy by quoting one verse of prophecy that points to Rome...JUST ONE! And I'll tell you again - You cannot do it because ONE verse does NOT exist!

I am sorry Stormy, you are under the impression that I am willing to entertain anyone that speaks with others the way you do. 
 

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone but it is another thing to be disagreeable. You have just too much anger and hate in you for me to want to try and have a discussion with you.

We have never met or exchanged opinions before. Try and look at this from another’s view - if I was in a social setting, say a BBQ and you walked up to a small group of people discussing a verse in Daniel. And you enter the small circle and direct your attention to me and began to speak and act the way you have just demonstrated… do you really think I or anyone that has any self-respect is even going to respond to you? 

No, they as I will calmly turn around and walk as far from you as they can… I am sure you have experienced this all too often in your life.

I assume you are at least older than 12, so I don’t understand why you haven’t realized how you alienate people from your first meeting!  Yet, you repeat this kind of behavior over and over. 
 

Unfortunately, I know too many people that act like  you. They most likely have been talked to this way by their parents and mistreated terribly. And it is such a horrible cycle to break. 
 

I pray you will ask the Holy Spirit to come into you and remove all the harm that was inflicted on you and seek His face. Life is so short and it can be so easy to be nice and enjoy what He has given us- but ONLY through Him can we be find peace and comfort in ourselves and others.

I will not be engaging with you, but I will pray for you. Best wishes, Charlie.

 

[Guest Stormy Monday]

4 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I am sorry Stormy, you are under the impression that I am willing to entertain anyone that speaks with others the way you do. 
 

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone but it is another thing to be disagreeable. You have just too much anger and hate in you for me to want to try and have a discussion with you.

We have never met or exchanged opinions before. Try and look at this from another’s view - if I was in a social setting, say a BBQ and you walked up to a small group of people discussing a verse in Daniel. And you enter the small circle and direct your attention to me and began to speak and act the way you have just demonstrated… do you really think I or anyone that has any self-respect is even going to respond to you? 

No, they as I will calmly turn around and walk as far from you as they can… I am sure you have experienced this all too often in your life.

I assume you are at least older than 12, so I don’t understand why you haven’t realized how you alienate people from your first meeting!  Yet, you repeat this kind of behavior over and over. 
 

Unfortunately, I know too many people that act like  you. They most likely have been talked to this way by their parents and mistreated terribly. And it is such a horrible cycle to break. 
 

I pray you will ask the Holy Spirit to come into you and remove all the harm that was inflicted on you and seek His face. Life is so short and it can be so easy to be nice and enjoy what He has given us- but ONLY through Him can we be find peace and comfort in ourselves and others.

I will not be engaging with you, but I will pray for you. Best wishes, Charlie.

 

How about this big guy - I'm a Catholic and I'm not going to tolerate YOUR demonization of me or my Church!

You cannot quote ONE prophecy that identifies Rome as any of the beast, yet you continue to push these lies and deceive yourselves and continue to slander your brothers and sisters.  Regardless of the overwhelming evidence AGAINST Rome, you continually push your diabolical baloney.

Edited February 15 by Stormy Monday

[Guest Stormy Monday]

Go ahead and wimp out Charlie, but I'll talk to a Catholic Demonizer any way I want. But before you go, I would like to see that ONE verse of prophecy implicating Rome.

You use the word Rome over and over and over again without one verse to support your diabolical baloney.

[Guest Stormy Monday]

4 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I pray you will ask the Holy Spirit to come into you and remove all the harm that was inflicted on you and seek His face.

I pray you see the truth - it's as simple as that.  You have zero truth.  The prophecies point to ISLAM big guy!

Regardless what anybody post here you'll never change your mind.  And that's the major problem with CHRISTIANS - they think they already have this completely figured out!  take a look at dougg - he's obsessed with Ezekiel 38-39 and is unable to move from there.  Both of you point to Rome - and that's about all you two agree on!

Edited February 15 by Stormy Monday

[Guest Stormy Monday]

4 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Unfortunately, I know too many people that act like  you. They most likely have been talked to this way by their parents and mistreated terribly. And it is such a horrible cycle to break. 

Only a fool would put out a comment like that!  Why not step up to the plate and quote that ONE verse I've been asking for. I'm a Catholic big guy and you're demonizing my Church with ZERO evidence!

Edited February 15 by Stormy Monday

[FJK]

1 hour ago, Stormy Monday said:

And that's the major problem with CHRISTIANS - they think they already have this completely figured out! 

Just a small question to understand where you are coming from:  Do you consider Catholics and Christians to be different, and if you do how?