What About The Palestinians ?

[Starise]

We can have ill informed citizens and informed non citizens right?

Among those informed we also have opinions.

[Anne2]

11 minutes ago, Slibhin said:

First this:

She finds out I am indeed a Jewish Israeli citizen so it becomes this:

She finds out I do love there periodically so it transforms into:

That was a quick reversal of opinion. Apparently we no longer need to be a Jewish Israeli citizen to speak on the matter.

Slibhin, Nice to meet you. You need not inform me you are Jewish, this has been known since you arrived. At least I have been aware of that for quite some time.

That you LIVE there from time to time does not make you having to live under fear, nor have your life on the line PERIOD. It is not a change of anything on my part. So you are a Jew? So what.

[Anne2]

1 minute ago, Anne2 said:

Slibhin, Nice to meet you. You need not inform me you are Jewish, this has been known since you arrived. At least I have been aware of that for quite some time.

That you LIVE there from time to time does not make you having to live under fear, nor have your life on the line PERIOD. It is not a change of anything on my part. So you are a Jew? So what. Evidently you think that has some special or should have weight? No, but you seem to have "read that into" my comments. That is in your mind, not mine. As I said I knew you are Jewish so what?

 

[dad2]

Quote

Unbelievers? In what sense?

Every sense. Israel has a majority of people who do not believe in the God of Abraham. Only 2% believe in Jesus as well.

 

Quote

Does the fact that they keep the covenant made with Abraham, despite the loss of life?

Being in unbelief is not keeping any covenant. Now if the, say, 35% (or whatever actual number) of Jewish folks in that nation called Israel wanted to keep a covenant with God, they would not be supporting the cruel ethnic cleansing going on etc etc. Their secular government does support such things. So what do we have there? We have almost no actual believers in the Messiah. We have a secular nation. Yes there are many Jews that practice old testament rituals and soon they will even have their old sacrifices again etc. That is not a good thing, it will be blasphemy. The Lamb of God already came and already was slain for our sins.

 

Quote

They are partly blinded, but that is until the fullness of Gentiles has come in.

In other words when the small leftover remnant of Jews finally are saved in the end the time for Gentiles ruling in the promised land will be over. Not until then.

[Anne2]

1 minute ago, dad2 said:

Every sense. Israel has a majority of people who do not believe in the God of Abraham. Only 2% believe in Jesus as well.

 

Being in unbelief is not keeping any covenant. Now if the, say, 35% (or whatever actual number) of Jewish folks in that nation called Israel wanted to keep a covenant with God, they would not be supporting the cruel ethnic cleansing going on etc etc. Their secular government does support such things. So what do we have there? We have almost no actual believers in the Messiah. We have a secular nation. Yes there are many Jews that practice old testament rituals and soon they will even have their old sacrifices again etc. That is not a good thing, it will be blasphemy. The Lamb of God already came and already was slain for our sins.

 

In other words when the small leftover remnant of Jews finally are saved in the end the time for Gentiles ruling in the promised land will be over. Not until then.

Temple Judaism/Levitical law of Sinai is a covenant 430 years after the covenant made with Abraham. Which promises cannot be disannulled. Neither do the Levitical sacrifices take away sin and never have.

 

It is the Abrahamic covenant of circumcision which brought them out of Egypt, brought them into the Land, and keeps Israel.

Lev 26:39  And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.

John's baptism??????????????? The way.... They went out to John confessing their sins....
40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41  And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42  Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
43  The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44  And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45  But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
 

Their Sin does not Abolish the promises, nor the lack of faith on the part of some nullify Gods faithfulness. God swore an oath and will not turn back from it. He is faithful despite their unfaithfulness all the same. 

Gen 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16  And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17  That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18  And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
This is not revoked.....They have been partly blinded by God

 

To Israel an everlasting covenant, remember always

1 chron 16:15  Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
16  Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
17  And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
18  Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance;
 

Again in David

 Ps 105: 8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
9  Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10  And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
11  Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance:
Consider the Promises to Abraham in the covenant in circumcision....

The covenant which also Gave to us Christ Jesus, and the new covenant in his blood.

Gentiles are included in that covenant promise. The Levitical covenant cannot disannull it, nor the law, nor the sacrifices which are by the law take away sin.

That covenant still has force for them and not revoked....Even in their blindness to Christ Jesus.

Earthly, worldly righteousness before their fellow man...... 

De 6:25  And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

It is not for righteousness before their God....
De 9:4  Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, my righteousness, the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
De 9:5  Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
De 9:6  Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

[Anne2]

19 minutes ago, Slibhin said:

Oh okay so I don't live with fear for all my family that resides there.

Just stop.

You please stop.  I said you do not have to fear for your life. It is not your head on the line. Every Israeli, fears for themselves as well as their own families. Their own children included. You, do not have put your life, nor the lives of your children. They do. Not to mention, all are to serve in the military, male and female.

[dad2]

Quote

Temple Judaism/Levitical law of Sinai is a covenant 430 years after the covenant made with Abraham. Which promises cannot be disannulled. Neither do the Levitical sacrifices take away sin and never have.

Chapter and verse?

Quote

It is the Abrahamic covenant of circumcision which brought them out of Egypt, brought them into the Land, and keeps Israel.

Circumcision was an outward show of belief. It saved no one.

 

Quote

40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41  And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42  Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
43  The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44  And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45  But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

So their hearts need to be right. In belief. THEN He remembers His covenant. Meanwhile He has some mercy in the other lands they must go into.

Quote

Their Sin does not Abolish the promises, nor the lack of faith on the part of some nullify Gods faithfulness.

The sin results in things like them having to leave the land and have Jerusalem destroyed and etc etc. Only when they repent are they eligible for the promises.

 

Quote

God swore an oath and will not turn back from it. He is faithful despite their unfaithfulness all the same. 

And the WAY He fulfills the promises is given to us. They have to go through the time of Jacob's trouble and then finally get saved and believe.

Quote

Gen 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16  And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17  That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18  And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
This is not revoked.....They have been partly blinded by God

Nations will be blessed by them once they believe in the end. Now they are more of a curse! Nations also were blessed in the past, because through them came Jesus! But they rejected Him

Quote

Again in David

 Ps 105: 8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
9  Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10  And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
11  Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance:
Consider the Promises to Abraham in the covenant in circumcision....

He will give the believers the land. Not today. They are not believers. ONLY believers will get it. Only after they receive Jesus. Not before. Period.

Quote

That covenant still has force for them and not revoked....Even in their blindness to Christ Jesus.

The only force it has is that He remembers them and has them go through a time of trial and judgment to purge them, so that one day they will believe. THEN the promise is fulfilled. So it was not revoked but put on pause.

Quote

De 6:25  And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

The big commandment of Jesus/God is to believe. No rituals done with a heart that is not right amount to a hill of beans.

Quote

It is not for righteousness before their God....
De 9:4  Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, my righteousness, the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
De 9:5  Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
De 9:6  Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

In the past when they were believers and He was their God, He of course did give them the land. He also fought their enemies. Even then, He gave them a land and freed them not because they were good. When He saves them after they receive Jesus in the end, He will again give them the land and destroy their enemies etc and again, not because they are good! Jesus saves, not works.

[Retrobyter]

12 hours ago, dad2 said:

Actually the stats are known. The majority do not believe in God.

Shalom, dad2.

If you had a wayward son, would he still be your son? God said,

Isaiah 49:14-16 (KJV)

14 "But Zion said,

"'The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.'

15 "Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. 16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of [my] hands; thy walls [are] continually before me."

This is EXACTLY what Israel is saying today! Why do you think there are so many reformed Jews and atheists among them? They're saying the words in verse 14!

12 hours ago, dad2 said:

Yes God calls it that now

And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Rev 11:8

Those born Jewish who receive Jesus in the end and are saved will be Israel. The one today would better be called Sodom

The nation ended when they rejected Jesus. They were scattered. The nation will be restored when it receives Jesus in the end. Only then will He give them the land. It is conditional.

This is an assumption that is not supported by the Bible. The nation has NOT ended! The nation is a FAMILY that has survived all the generations from the Lord until now. We call other nations, "United States of America," "Dominion of Canada," the "United Mexican States," etc. But, the official title of Israel has always been "the Children of Israel." "Israel" (יִשְׂרָאֵל or Yisraa'Eel) was a MAN! He was the grandson of Avraham and the son of Yitschaq, who was originally called "Ya`aqoV" or "Jacob!"

12 hours ago, dad2 said:

Israel is people. If we want to call all saved people Israel, then we would specify that it is the children of Abraham and Jacob that will be saved in the end and be called Israel and receive the promised land.

No, we DON'T want to 'call all saved people "Israel!"' The children of Israel ARE the children of Israel! Gentile believers can be ADOPTED INTO the family, alongside of the children, but they are NOT the primary people in the FAMILY!

You're also putting too much emphasis on "being saved." That is NOT the dividing line between peoples! Too many people use the words without knowing what they mean! The words "being saved" means "being RESCUED" and it is primarily talking about NATIONAL rescue when the Messiah comes back! That's also to what Paul was referring in Romans 10! He wasn't quoting from Scriptures that were talking about individual justification by God! He was quoting from Psalms and the Prophets who were talking about the NATIONAL redemption of Yeeshuwa`s own kindred! The brothers and sisters and aunts and uncles and nephews and nieces however many times removed and however many times distant in number from Himself! 

HERE'S how the Scriptures reveal those who will comprise His Kingdom:

 

And, THIS is the composition of the Kingdom:

The thin, black, horizontal line divides the children of Israel from the rest of the nations, the Goyim (Hebrew for "Gentiles"). (The black line doesn't exist within the Green area. See Ephesians 2:14.) The red line at an angle divides those initially in the Kingdom (which starts at the Messiah's Return) from those outside of His Kingdom. The current members-to-be of His FUTURE Kingdom are in the Green, but the Blue sections will be added upon the Messiah's return!

The bottom Blue section comprises those who are Israelis (children of Israel) who will acknowledge the Messiah when He comes.
The top Blue section are added at the War Tribunal (also called the Judgment of the Sheep and Goat nations).

The Red sections will be added one nation at a time throughout the Millennium. (See 1 Corinthians 15:20-28.)

Those who do not accept the Great Exchange (Greek: τοῦ καταλλάξαντος or "tou katallaxantos" = "the-One-who exchanged-places-with," translated "who hath reconciled") described in 2 Corinthians 5:21; that is, those who remain in the nations seen in Red, will be those who go into the Great White Throne Judgment. The others SHOULD contain members who have already accepted the Great Exchange, although Yeeshuwa` said there would be "tares" among the "wheat"; that is, "children of the wicked one" among the "children of the Kingdom."

One also needs to be aware of the fact that the Messiah's Kingdom will LAST FOREVER! It fulfills the DAVIDIC Covenant (2 Samuel 7; 1 Chronicles 17) which was repeated by Gabriel to Mary (Luke 1:30-33). The Millennium is strictly speaking the time measuring the lock-up of HaSatan in the Bottomless Pit, which is just the FIRST 1,000 years (Greek: chilia etee) of the Messiah's reign.

[warrior12]

15 hours ago, Starise said:

A few fortunates escape. I am convinced there is a percentage of people who want nothing to do with any of it.Maybe a large percentage just want out of there and a place to raise their families. 

Your conviction is from speculation and rightly so, but it is still speculation.   In those Islamic countries, the population goes by the doctrine that they have been taught from a very young age.  Their ideology and religious teachings are entrenced in their very existence and way of life.  Family, pride of culture and brotherhood in their faith is strongly observed and they stand united in their struggle or Jihad as they call it.  

What is Jihad, as I heard one describe it as , until every muslim is free from oppression, and who is considered their opperssors, the West, Christians,Jews and Infadel.  

What Isis was trying to do is what Islam teaches i.e to bring about the Caliphate so that they can be ruled by that leader and the rest of the world who are not muslims be in submission to them and be Dhimmi or subordinate and essentially their slaves. 

Do your homework, their is enough ex-muslims and other critics of Islam who can enlighten you to what they want to achieve and the price they are willing to pay.  

Take a good look at Afganistan,  how the religious rulers there who are also the non elected government treat their own population.  This is what those who fall for the foolishess of their plots awaits them.

The Taliban stood up and  fought until they achieve what they wanted. The west tried to reform that country, but they were worn out with hoplessness against an enemy that was determine.    

 

[Anne2]

10 hours ago, dad2 said:

Chapter and verse?

Circumcision was an outward show of belief. It saved no one.

 

 

So their hearts need to be right. In belief. THEN He remembers His covenant. Meanwhile He has some mercy in the other lands they must go into.

The sin results in things like them having to leave the land and have Jerusalem destroyed and etc etc. Only when they repent are they eligible for the promises.

 

And the WAY He fulfills the promises is given to us. They have to go through the time of Jacob's trouble and then finally get saved and believe.

Nations will be blessed by them once they believe in the end. Now they are more of a curse! Nations also were blessed in the past, because through them came Jesus! But they rejected Him

He will give the believers the land. Not today. They are not believers. ONLY believers will get it. Only after they receive Jesus. Not before. Period.

The only force it has is that He remembers them and has them go through a time of trial and judgment to purge them, so that one day they will believe. THEN the promise is fulfilled. So it was not revoked but put on pause.

The big commandment of Jesus/God is to believe. No rituals done with a heart that is not right amount to a hill of beans.

In the past when they were believers and He was their God, He of course did give them the land. He also fought their enemies. Even then, He gave them a land and freed them not because they were good. When He saves them after they receive Jesus in the end, He will again give them the land and destroy their enemies etc and again, not because they are good! Jesus saves, not works.

I did not say Circumcision saved them. They are keeping that covenant by faith. Why else would they suffer as they have and face danger if Faith were not the reason? Furthermore......

It is a COVENANT that God swore an OATH concerning. He will not turn from it. It concerns their EARTHLY INHERITANCE. When God swears an oath it is immutable

There are two portions of inheritance, two covenants. The firsborn Are they which have a double portion from Abraham.

These are Jew's of the new covenant ELECT the rest were PARTLY blinded

Heb 11:28  Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
Heb 12:23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Israel is back in the land of it's earthly portion. For some in the end they will never enter into the heavenly, just like unbelieving Gentiles. As long as this earth and this world continues, so too will God be faithful to his oath.

Edited February 28 by Anne2