Rev 16:18 suggests an Old Earth??

[Diaste]

Rev 16:18 - And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake.   English Standard Version

Genesis 1 is the account of original creation, why didn't John just say "since the creation of the earth", since Genesis 1:1 begins with original creation.  

Does v.2ff is actually describe a restoration of an earth that "BECAME an UNINHABITABLE WASTELAND", as the Hebrew words are translated elsewhere in Scripture?  This supports an undetermined time gap between 1:1 and 1:2.

Does verse gives support to an earth very much older than Adam?

[RdJ]

There were mountains already when the flood of Noah came, so you could think they were formed way earlier with plate tectonics after satan fell but this sounds like the start of God forming the earth, just like Job 38:

Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever You had formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.
Psalms 90:1‭-‬2 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/psa.90.1-2.NKJV

 

And when satan fell he was thrown on the earth. Gap says that there was a different species of humans and kings and that he was trading with them. That makes no sense. This is about the future:

“Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you. “You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you. All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever.” ’ ”
Ezekiel 28:17‭-‬19 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/ezk.28.17-19.NKJV

It's also in Revelation.

 

 

Edited April 8, 2024 by RdJ

[RV_Wizard]

Proponents of the Gap Theory claim that Genesis 1:1 represents a planet thrown into chaos and in need of restoration, which begins with Genesis 1:2.  However, light was created in Genesis 1:3, so whatever existed before, without form and void by most interpretations, was in total darkness with no source of light or heat.

It's not until Genesis 1:9 that dry land appears of the earth.  So previously, the earth was cloaked in water and darkness, and the frozen nothingness of space.  Plant life comes in verse 11, also on the third day.  Previous to this, the earth was uninhabitable.  How could it have "become a wasteland" when given the previous state it could never have been anything else?

The sun, moon and stars were created on day four, meaning they didn't exist before.  The stars were for seasons and signs, and for navigation, meaning they could be seen from earth.  It is entirely possible that there were already other worlds and galaxies not visible to man and not of value for seasons and signs.  Such things are never discussed in the Bible, neither hinted at nor downplayed.

In Exodus 20:11, God personally affirms that the heavens and the earth were created in six days.  From Adam onward, we have a bloodline of generations to Abraham, then to Noah, then to David, then to Jesus.  Thus, God reveals to us the age of the earth.  God, of course, is eternal and existed forever before the creation.  He has angels to serve Him which do not age.  Time itself is a construct of our existence here.  One day time itself will be destroyed and we will all spend eternity somewhere.

You can read into the Bible anything you want, and find fractions of verses to support nearly any claim.  Wisdom lies not in seeking ways to validate your beliefs, but in studying the word of God and believing what it reveals.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Proponents of the Gap Theory claim that Genesis 1:1 represents a planet thrown into chaos and in need of restoration, which begins with Genesis 1:2. 

I'm happy to correct you once again.  There's no theory in what I have shared.  Just the actual literal Hebrew Word of God, which you reject, in favor of the KJV translation which isn't even a reality.  No object can be formless as a state of being.  It is only considered "formless" when being compared to like objects, but lacks the typical characteristic form of like objects.

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

However, light was created in Genesis 1:3, so whatever existed before, without form and void by most interpretations, was in total darkness with no source of light or heat.

The condition of the earth AFTER it became an uninhabitable wasteland.  And why a restoration was needed before man was created.

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

It's not until Genesis 1:9 that dry land appears of the earth.

During the 6 day restoration.

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  So previously, the earth was cloaked in water and darkness, and the frozen nothingness of space.

Explains why the earth was restored.  Man couldn't survive on it otherwise.

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Plant life comes in verse 11, also on the third day.  Previous to this, the earth was uninhabitable.  How could it have "become a wasteland" when given the previous state it could never have been anything else?

All about restoration.

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The sun, moon and stars were created on day four, meaning they didn't exist before.  The stars were for seasons and signs, and for navigation, meaning they could be seen from earth.  It is entirely possible that there were already other worlds and galaxies not visible to man and not of value for seasons and signs.  Such things are never discussed in the Bible, neither hinted at nor downplayed.

It's all about restoration, which "tohu wabohu" clearly indicates in v.2.

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

In Exodus 20:11, God personally affirms that the heavens and the earth were created in six days.i

Since you've been totally corrected numerous times now, let's just quit lying, ok?  There is NOTHING in Ex 20:11 about creation.  The word for "created" in Gen 1:1 IS creation, or bara.  But in Ex 20:11, the word is "asah", correctly translated as "made".

bara is about creating out of nothing, such as the universe and earth, per v.1, and Adam's soul, per 1:27.  

asah is about making things out of existing materials, like Adam's body, per 1:26.

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  From Adam onward, we have a bloodline of generations to Abraham, then to Noah, then to David, then to Jesus.  Thus, God reveals to us the age of the earth.

No, what is revealed is the time after Adam's fall.  He and Eve didn't have children until after the fall.

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

You can read into the Bible anything you want, and find fractions of verses to support nearly any claim.

Some even ignore what the Bible actually says, like yourself.

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Wisdom lies not in seeking ways to validate your beliefs, but in studying the word of God and believing what it reveals.

Exactly!

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Rev 16:18 - And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake.   English Standard Version

Genesis 1 is the account of original creation, why didn't John just say "since the creation of the earth", since Genesis 1:1 begins with original creation.  

Does v.2ff is actually describe a restoration of an earth that "BECAME an UNINHABITABLE WASTELAND", as the Hebrew words are translated elsewhere in Scripture?  This supports an undetermined time gap between 1:1 and 1:2.

Does verse gives support to an earth very much older than Adam?

Since man appeared on day 6 of the Earth's existence, Revelation 16:18 certainly does not suggest an old Earth. Also supposed Gap theory of Genesis 1:2 was invented in the 1800s in an attempt to mesh evolution with biblical creation. The Gap theory is a blasphemous compromise and corruption attempting to elevate man's wisdom to the same level as God's. The Earth is very young, and the science easily supports that.

[FreeGrace]

27 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Since man appeared on day 6 of the Earth's existence, Revelation 16:18 certainly does not suggest an old Earth.

It is an assumption that the earth is only 6 days older than Adam.  The verse clearly suggests earthquakes BEFORE the restoration of earth before God placed Adam on it.  

27 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Also supposed Gap theory of Genesis 1:2 was invented in the 1800s in an attempt to mesh evolution with biblical creation.

Not true.  The very words in Gen 1:2 were very poorly translated by the KJV, and most translations after that just stuck with what the KJV did.  However, there are 5 translations of 1:2 that translated "tohu wabohu" correctly.

Genesis 1:2  tohu wabohu is translated in red

American Standard Version

And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Darby Bible Translation

And the earth was waste and empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

English Revised Version

And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Young's Literal Translation

the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,

Brenton Septuagint Version

But the earth was unsightly and unfurnished, and darkness was over the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the water.

These 5 translation render “tohu” as “waste (4)/unsightly.  This cannot be applied to original creation.

Even more compelling is the fact that the 2 Hebrew words, "tohu wabohu", which the KJV and most translations have as "without form and void", occur only 2 other times in the OT.  Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11.  And in both of those texts, the words are used to describe coming destruction of land.  So "tohu wabohu" cannot be used to describe creation.  

27 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

The Gap theory is a blasphemous compromise and corruption attempting to elevate man's wisdom to the same level as God's.\

The time gap is real, as "tohu wabohu" indicate.  What is theory is just guessing about what may have caused the destruction of the earth, which God restored for man's use.

27 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

The Earth is very young, and the science easily supports that.

Hardly.  Can you explain how any object can be formless?  If one can see an object, they are seeing its form.  

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

It is an assumption that the earth is only 6 days older than Adam.  The verse clearly suggests earthquakes BEFORE the restoration of earth before God placed Adam on it.  

Not true.  The very words in Gen 1:2 were very poorly translated by the KJV, and most translations after that just stuck with what the KJV did.  However, there are 5 translations of 1:2 that translated "tohu wabohu" correctly.

Genesis 1:2  tohu wabohu is translated in red

American Standard Version

And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Darby Bible Translation

And the earth was waste and empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

English Revised Version

And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Young's Literal Translation

the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,

Brenton Septuagint Version

But the earth was unsightly and unfurnished, and darkness was over the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the water.

These 5 translation render “tohu” as “waste (4)/unsightly.  This cannot be applied to original creation.

Even more compelling is the fact that the 2 Hebrew words, "tohu wabohu", which the KJV and most translations have as "without form and void", occur only 2 other times in the OT.  Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11.  And in both of those texts, the words are used to describe coming destruction of land.  So "tohu wabohu" cannot be used to describe creation.  

The time gap is real, as "tohu wabohu" indicate.  What is theory is just guessing about what may have caused the destruction of the earth, which God restored for man's use.

Hardly.  Can you explain how any object can be formless?  If one can see an object, they are seeing its form.  

I can see by your response that you believe in the Gap theory quite strongly. However I must say that I do not believe in it, not only because there's no science to support it, but also because I don't believe scripture supports it. Even if the translation that you use where you quote the words in red are correct, the phrase waste and void does not prove a previous creation. I see nothing in the text itself that shows a previous creation. Similar words can be used for completely different events. Just because waste and void are used in Jeremiah to refer to a desolation after man was on the Earth does not mean that waste and void in Genesis has to mean the exact same thing. I could argue many points on that, but will refrain for the time being. On day one all God did was create a ball of dirt that did not yet have a single cell of life on it. I would certainly qualify that as being waste and void at creation. I remember reading a book by a Hebrew scholar who said that Genesis 1 cannot support the Gap theory. In fact, I know of no reputable scholar who supports the Gap theory without also believing in Darwin's theory of evolution. Ultimately the problem of the Gap theory claims that there were millions of years of death before Adam, when the New Testament clearly says there was no death before Adam. How could millions of years of death and decay exist on a very good Earth before Adam corrupted the Earth? This is the logic I use and the true science that does not support millions of years to believe that the Gap theory is a demonic doctrine simply yet successfully intended to so doubt in the minds of believers and derail them from The Good Life that Christ promises.

[RV_Wizard]

26 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Ultimately the problem of the Gap theory claims that there were millions of years of death before Adam, when the New Testament clearly says there was no death before Adam.

Not only that, there was no living thing on the earth before day five, other than the trees and grasses which were created on day three.  Gap theory is a thoroughly disproved heresy.

[FreeGrace]

33 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I can see by your response that you believe in the Gap theory quite strongly.

No.  To clarify, I provide NO theory at all.  What I share is based solely on the 2 Hebrew words in Gen 1:2, "tohu wabohu", which have been very poorly translated in English by most of the versions.  Those 2 words occur together in only 2 other passages, Jer 4:23 and isa 34:11.  In both passages, the context is a warning about the coming disaster and total destruction of land.

So, there is no way the 2 words can mean "formless and void" in Gen 1:2.  In fact, no object is formless.  Every object has form.

33 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

However I must say that I do not believe in it, not only because there's no science to support it, but also because I don't believe scripture supports it.

If you research the 2 Hebrew words and understand the contexts they occur in, it will become clear.

33 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Even if the translation that you use where you quote the words in red are correct, the phrase waste and void does not prove a previous creation.

v.2 should be "but the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland".  That certainly does indicate the original creation was destroyed, and the 6 days of Genesis 1 is a restoration.

There is no way "tohu wabohu" can be used for original creation.  Please read Jer 4 and Isa 34.

33 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I see nothing in the text itself that shows a previous creation.

I've not said there was a "previous creation".  There is only 1 creation, which became a wasteland.  That is what "tohu wabohu" means, as seen in Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11.

33 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Similar words can be used for completely different events.

No, the meaning of "tohu" is consistent throughout its other 9 uses.  Here they are:

Tohu occurs 10 times in the OT

Genesis 1:2
NAS: The earth was formless and void,

1 Samuel 12:21
NAS: futile things which

Job 26:7
NAS: over empty space And hangs

Isaiah 24:10
NAS: The city of chaos is broken down;
KJV: The city of confusion is broken down:

Isaiah 34:11 Describes the total destruction of the land
NAS: it the line of desolation And the plumb line
KJV: upon it the line of confusion, and the stones

Isaiah 44:9
NAS: are all of them futile, and their precious things
KJV: a graven image [are] all of them vanity; and their delectable things

Isaiah 45:18   Directly contradicts Gen 1:2 usual translation
NAS: it [and] did not create it a waste place, [but] formed
KJV: it, he created it not in vain, he formed

Isaiah 45:19
NAS: Seek Me in a waste place; I, the LORD,
KJV: Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD

Isaiah 59:4
NAS: They trust in confusion and speak
KJV: they trust in vanity, and speak

Jeremiah 4:23   Describes the total destruction of the land by an invading army
NAS: and behold, [it was] formless and void;
KJV: the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void;

chaos, desolation, futile, waste place (3), confusion, formless (2).  But Jer 4:23 cannot be ‘formless’ since it describes the total destruction of land by a besieging army that destroys nations (from context).  So should be 4 x for “wasteland/place”.  None of these words can be applied to original perfect creation of the earth.  ALL of these translations describe very negative conditions.

33 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Just because waste and void are used in Jeremiah to refer to a desolation after man was on the Earth does not mean that waste and void in Genesis has to mean the exact same thing.

If words mean things, (and they do), then YES they do mean the same thing.

In fact, Jeremiah quoted from Gen 1:2 to describe what was coming.  This isn't difficult to see.

33 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I could argue many points on that, but will refrain for the time being. On day one all God did was create a ball of dirt that did not yet have a single cell of life on it.

That's not what Gen 1:1 says.  It says "in the beginning, God created the heavens and EARTH".  He did not create a ball of dirt.  That would be a theory for sure.  I don't deal in theories.  I deal only in what the Hebrew says and means, as shown by all the other uses in the OT.  That is how we understand what words mean when translating.

33 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I would certainly qualify that as being waste and void at creation.

Well, that makes no sense.  Why would God create "waste" at creation?  He's much better than that.  And the use of "tohu wabohu" in Jer 4 and Isa 34 are warning about coming DESTRUCTION to the land.  And Jeremiah quoted from Gen 1:2 because Moses WAS describing a wasteland, not original creation.

33 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I remember reading a book by a Hebrew scholar who said that Genesis 1 cannot support the Gap theory.

I keep reminding everyone that I have NOT mentioned ANY theory.  Only what the original Hebrew means and how the words are used elsewhere.

Darwin was an idiot.  I believe Gen 1:1 is original and good creation.  But the earth BECAME a wasteland.  That is not hard to  understand, even though God did not give us any details.  Doesn't matter because "tohu wabohu" is enough evidence.

btw, the verb "was" in Gen 1:2 is a verb of existence, to be or become.  And the EXACT SAME FORM of the verb as in 1:2 is translated as "became/become" elseswhere in the OT.  Easy to check it out for yourself on biblehub.com.

You said:

"New Testament clearly says there was no death before Adam. How could millions of years of death and decay exist on a very good Earth before Adam corrupted the Earth? "

Hasn't it occurred to you that 'no death' only refers to human death on a restored earth?  What we do not know is what was on the earth at original creation and HOW and WHY it became a wasteland.

33 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

How could millions of years of death and decay exist on a very good Earth before Adam corrupted the Earth?

We have no idea what was on earth before it became a wasteland.

33 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

This is the logic I use and the true science that does not support millions of years to believe that the Gap theory is a demonic doctrine simply yet successfully intended to so doubt in the minds of believers and derail them from The Good Life that Christ promises.

 Instead of logic, which asks questions that aren't answered in Scripture, simply research the Hebrew words and how they are used elsewhere in the OT.

Words mean things.  And not opposite things.  We cannot "second guess" why "tohu wabohu" means totally opposite things between Gen 1:2 and 4:23/Isa 34:11.

In fact, there is no logical reason to think that the 2 words mean different things in Gen 1:2 than in the other 2 passages.

[RV_Wizard]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

In fact, there is no logical reason to think that the 2 words mean different things in Gen 1:2 than in the other 2 passages.

Other than that 86% of the interpretations disagree with your claims, and there was neither land not life on earth before day three.

Genesis 1:30 "And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so."  All animals were created vegetarian.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.  There was not death on earth before Adam's sin.
 

Gap theory destroyed by a proper understanding of Hebrew.

In conclusion, the following have all been found contrary to the Gap Theory:

Bara' and 'asah indeed have synonomous meanings.

The first waw in Genesis 1:2 is correctly translated as "and."

The hyth in Genesis 1:2 is correctly translated as "was."

Tohu and bohu mean that the Earth was originally created in a state that was uninhabited, but God's intention in the creation was to make them inhabitable.

The ending of Genesis 1:1 with a silluq (not a rebhia as claimed) is normal and has no impact on the waw following.

Replenish in 1:28 simply means "fill." It gives no indication that there had been prior inhabitants on the earth.  source

 First, the details of the Hebrew words and grammar in Genesis 1:2 do not support the gap theory.  The noun tōhû here does not mean “ruin” or “desolation” in the sense of necessarily implying the ruin of an original pristine state.  There is little basis for rendering the verb hāyâ in Genesis 1:2 “became” (Pember) or “had become” (Custance).  Pember’s absolute distinction between bārā and ʿāśâ is not sustainable on lexical grounds. Both verbs are used in the Old Testament to denote creation in the absolute sense.

Second, because the gap theory wants to take the six days of creation literally, it necessarily places Genesis 1:1–2 outside of the creation week. But the immediate context and subsequent scriptural allusions to Genesis 1 make clear that the initial creation of the heavens and the earth (Gen. 1:1) marks the starting point of the creation week. This is clear from the context, when we come to the concluding statement: “Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them” (Gen. 2:1). Subsequent scriptural allusions to Genesis 1 are just as emphatic, for example, the statement in the Decalogue that “in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them” (Exod. 20:11; cf. 31:17). Because the gap theory wants to take the six days of “re-creation” as literal days, while making room for long geological eras prior to verse 3, the theory requires that the creation week begin at verse 3 rather than at verse 1. Yet Scripture itself views the first verse of Genesis 1 as narrating the beginning of the creation week.

Third, there is no biblical evidence that God created plants and animals in an original creation, which was then destroyed under God’s judgment prior to Adam’s fall. The gap theory’s appeal to Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 is tenuous at best. To begin with, biblical scholars are not sure that these passages are in fact referring to Satan’s fall. At a surface level, they seem to be about the fall of human kings (the kings of Babylon and Tyre). But even if these passages have a second-order reference to Satan’s fall, does his being cast down from heaven look back to an event in the primeval past or forward to Satan’s defeat by Christ and his ultimate punishment (Rev. 12:9; 20:10)? And is the image of Satan being cast to earth to be taken literally and physically, like the massive meteor that scientists think caused the extinction of the dinosaurs?

Furthermore, there is nothing in those passages about an original creation of plants and animals, or about Satan being cast down to the earth and causing geological catastrophe, mass extinctions, death, chaos, and ruin as indicated in the fossil record. These additional details of the theory have to be manufactured by imagination and speculation. And once manufactured they must then be inserted into the Genesis 1 account.   source

The fact is that no such gap exists between the first two verses of Genesis at all. The second verse merely describes the initial aspect of the creation as "without form and void"—that is, with neither structure nor inhabitants. The rest of the chapter tells how God produced a marvelous structure for His created universe, with multitudes of plant and animal inhabitants for the earth, all to be under the dominion of its human inhabitants created in the image of God. It was only then that God pronounced the creation "finished" (Genesis 2:1).

It is time for those who believe the Bible and in the goodness and wisdom of God to abandon the gap theory once and for all (as well as the day-age theory, which is even worse) and simply believe what God has said. The gap theory has no scientific merit, requires a very forced Biblical exegesis, and leads to a God-dishonoring theology. It does not work, either Biblically or scientifically.  source

Please stop trying to pollute the minds of Christians with your heresy.