Rev 16:18 suggests an Old Earth??

[Still Alive]

By the way, it is argued that this is how the writers of our earliest Bible scripture viewed the earth. It would color the language they used. It's why I must constantly remind myself the bible is not a science book. That is not its function. None of it contains decipherable 24th century science.

[RV_Wizard]

2 hours ago, Still Alive said:

And I find it interesting that scientific discovery has convinced most of us that we are on a sphere orbiting the sun, which is travelling at a high rate of speed through a galaxy of quite a few other disparate "suns",

While the ancients may not have seen things that way, the Bible doesn't teach cosmology.  We do learn in Job that He hangs the earth upon nothing.  There are many things hinted at in the Bible which didn't make sense to those living then, but with our current knowledge makes perfect sense.  

Science can teach us many things, but it can teach us nothing about God.  It makes assumption about the creation which it can never prove.  One of these assumptions is that the earth is millions of years old.  This presupposes millions of years of death before the existence of Adam, but we learn in Romans that through Adam's sin, death came into the world.  Prior to Adam's sin, nothing died.  With science, this makes no sense.  With God, it all makes perfect sense.

2 Thessalonians chapter 2:

9 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

While the ancients may not have seen things that way, the Bible doesn't teach cosmology.  We do learn in Job that He hangs the earth upon nothing.

That would be cosmology, a short course.

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  There are many things hinted at in the Bible which didn't make sense to those living then, but with our current knowledge makes perfect sense.

Because of what science has learned about God's creation.

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

 Science can teach us many things, but it can teach us nothing about God.

Just more nonsense.  

Romans 1-

19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Of course creation teaches everyone God's eternal power and divine nature.  

Unless you don't believe what Paul wrote under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  It makes assumption about the creation which it can never prove.  One of these assumptions is that the earth is millions of years old.

You really think science just assumes this?  Well, that's just a dogma coming from your young earth religion, which has NO evidence, and no proof.

Science can measure the speed of light and describes distances by light-years, which is the distance light travels in one year.  So they have measured, to a degree, the expanse of the universe.  

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  This presupposes millions of years of death before the existence of Adam

Another fallacy from your religion.  The 'death' in Romans 5 refers to human death only.  

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

but we learn in Romans that through Adam's sin, death came into the world.

Sure did.  Death to all humans.

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Prior to Adam's sin, nothing died.

Why would God mention any detail about the earth BEFORE it became an uninhabitable wasteland (tohu wabohu)?

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  With science, this makes no sense.  With God, it all makes perfect sense.

All your remarks here make no sense.

11 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

2 Thessalonians chapter 2:

9 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

v.11 directly applies to your young earth religion, which is why all the remarks here make no sense.

What you believe has no basis in reality.  Proven by your argument that "formless" does exist as a state, even though the source you quoted about shape and form refute your religion.

God created a 3 dimensional universe.  Therefore, everything is 3 dimensional.  There is no such thing as a formless earth.  But what did the translators of the KJV know, since there was very little science.  

So, since you believe the untruth that God created the  earth formless (tohu), proves that you are in a false religion.

"God created (bara) the earth and the earth was tohu."

Isa 45:18 directly refutes the KJV and every translation that copied it.

"God did not create (bara) the earth tohu."

So you religion has a problem that you don't even realize.  That's the way dogma is.

Reality is clear:

v.2 BUT (LXX translation, showing a contrast) the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland (tohu wabohu).

With a correct translation of the Hebrew in v.2, there is no contradiction.

[Still Alive]

15 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

While the ancients may not have seen things that way, the Bible doesn't teach cosmology.  We do learn in Job that He hangs the earth upon nothing.  There are many things hinted at in the Bible which didn't make sense to those living then, but with our current knowledge makes perfect sense.  

Science can teach us many things, but it can teach us nothing about God.  It makes assumption about the creation which it can never prove.  One of these assumptions is that the earth is millions of years old.  This presupposes millions of years of death before the existence of Adam, but we learn in Romans that through Adam's sin, death came into the world.  Prior to Adam's sin, nothing died.  With science, this makes no sense.  With God, it all makes perfect sense.

2 Thessalonians chapter 2:

9 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Though I agree with the general position you hold there, I disagree with one part. You mention death coming into the world after Adam. And I agree. But I believe the word, "world", could also be discussing the age the bible is talking about. The one that started about 6,000 years ago. But if there were any ages before that, it may not apply. 

That's one of the things I'm talking about. I find that often people don't differ on what the bible says, but differ on interpretation. Since world doesn't necessarily mean "earth", it is possible that "world" in the verse you brought up, death came into THIS world/age through Adam's sin. And as far as we are concerned, that is the only world that matters, from a biblical perspective. 

In fact, I think a lot of what the bible tells us about the past and future may need an implied suffix, "as far as humans on this planet in this age are concerned."

And, most importantly, everything I said above is, IMO, outside the scope of what the bible addresses, so it's really speculation. That is, what happened before He put man on this planet.

Edited April 15, 2024 by Still Alive

[RdJ]

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 The 'death' in Romans 5 refers to human death only.  

Sure did.  Death to all humans.

Wolves eating lambs is caused by Adam's sin. The wolf will lay next to the lamb. Then they say: that's not literal. Oh so in heaven the lambs have to watch out that they don't get caught by a wolf? It's evil and God is good and doesn't create that. They ate herbs in Genesis.

Even a Dutch atheist made a song about it in the 60s called Eve who ruins everything and then the cat catches a bird.

For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.
Romans 8:19‭-‬22 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/rom.8.19-22.NKJV

Edited April 15, 2024 by RdJ

[RdJ]

22 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 

Sure did.  Death to all humans.

 

“The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.
7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,
And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
As the waters cover the sea.

God never created dinosaurs that murder each other before Adam nor in Genesis 1:24.

[FreeGrace]

25 minutes ago, RdJ said:

“The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.
7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,
And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
As the waters cover the sea.

Not sure of your point here.

25 minutes ago, RdJ said:

God never created dinosaurs that murder each other before Adam nor in Genesis 1:24.

Animals don't murder.  Humans murder.  Know the difference.  Carnivores eat meat to survive.  That's called the "food chain".  What it isn't, is murder.

Unless one honestly deals with "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2, and what those words describe, they will never truly understand Genesis 1.

[RdJ]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Not sure of your point here.

Animals don't murder.  Humans murder.  Know the difference.  Carnivores eat meat to survive.  That's called the "food chain".  What it isn't, is murder.

Unless one honestly deals with "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2, and what those words describe, they will never truly understand Genesis 1.

Okay I agree animals are not a bunch of murderers, but the food chain and animals eating each other to survive is from after Adam and Eve fell in sin. God does not call it good, yes sure, Noah could eat meat, cause it had all changed anyway, but it was not good, like the rest of creation:

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain

And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Death came when Adam sinned.

 

Why not split the discussion up in:

 

1. Satan fell before or after God created the earth, which caused tohu wabohu or not.

2. How old are the fossils, when did death start

 

 

 

 

[FreeGrace]

11 minutes ago, RdJ said:

Okay I agree animals are not a bunch of murderers, but the food chain and animals eating each other to survive is from after Adam and Eve fell in sin. God does not call it good, yes sure, Noah could eat meat, cause it had all changed anyway, but it was not good, like the rest of creation:

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain

All this applies to when Adam was created.  It has nothing to do with original creation.

11 minutes ago, RdJ said:

And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Death came when Adam sinned.

Death to humans is what Romans 5 is referring to.

11 minutes ago, RdJ said:

Why not split the discussion up in:

  1. Satan fell before or after God created the earth, which caused tohu wabohu or not.

2. How old are the fossils, when did death start

Because it is clear that Satan was in "Eden, the garden of God" per Ezek 28 (v.13) before "iniquity was found in him" (v.15).  

#2 doesn't matter.  It is errelevant.

What is very relevant is what "tohu wabohu" describes in Gen 1:2, because there is no detail (context) for it.  However, the same 2 words occur together in 2 other passages:  Jer 4 and isa 34.

In both passages, the words are used to describe "great destruction" of land.

How can those 2 words be used to describe original creation when they are used both times for destruction of land?

That is what the young earthers can't get around.

[RdJ]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Death to humans is what Romans 5 is referring to.

Because it is clear that Satan was in "Eden, the garden of God" per Ezek 28 (v.13) before "iniquity was found in him" (v.15). 

Is it?

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam

Who are that? I thought everybody sinned and needs Jesus. Someone did not sin? Maybe the lambs that were offered in the O.T. and all the other animals. Anyway it does not matter what Romans 5 means because they did not eat each other before Adam fell. They ate herbs and were like how animals are in heaven and how they will be when death has been done away and He saves the whole creation that has birth pangs from dying, which is also animals. And even if there was another creation with other animals still the ones created in verse 24 only got carnivorous and died when Adam sinned.

Yes that text is unclear to me. He was in Eden. The Eden on earth from Adam and Eve? As satan yes but before that too? Because if so you can skip GAP altogether.

https://www.hebrewversity.com/deeper-hebrew-meaning-garden-eden/

It can also mean you were in paradise if you ask me. Makes more sense because the tree of knowledge of good and evil was already there, so there was evil.

You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
John 8:44 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/jhn.8.44.NKJV

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. So I would say before God even created the earth satan already fell. Which would explain the darkness when God created the initial earth.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2024 by RdJ