Rev 16:18 suggests an Old Earth??

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, RdJ said:

FreeGrace said:

Death to humans is what Romans 5 is referring to.

Because it is clear that Satan was in "Eden, the garden of God" per Ezek 28 (v.13) before "iniquity was found in him" (v.15). 

Is it?

That's how I take Ezek 28.

2 hours ago, RdJ said:

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam

Exactly.  Just the human race was being referred to.

2 hours ago, RdJ said:

Who are that? I thought everybody sinned and needs Jesus. Someone did not sin? Maybe the lambs that were offered in the O.T. and all the other animals.

I don't understand your question.  Of course everyone needs the Savior.

 

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, RdJ said:

Anyway it does not matter what Romans 5 means because they did not eat each other before Adam fell.

This comment seems rather bizarre.  The issue is about death, not who eats who.

2 hours ago, RdJ said:

They ate herbs and were like how animals are in heaven and how they will be when death has been done away and He saves the whole creation that has birth pangs from dying, which is also animals. And even if there was another creation with other animals still the ones created in verse 24 only got carnivorous and died when Adam sinned.

?

2 hours ago, RdJ said:

Yes that text is unclear to me. He was in Eden. The Eden on earth from Adam and Eve?

Does the Bible explain a different Eden?  No.  Has to be the same one.

2 hours ago, RdJ said:

As satan yes but before that too? Because if so you can skip GAP altogether.

What you cannot skip is how "tohu wabohu" is used.  We know from jer 4 and Isa 34 that the words mean "an uninhabitable wasteland".  How can that be used for original creation.

There's another glitch for the YEC as well.

KJV Gen 1:1,2  "In the beginning, God created (bara) the heavens and earth, v.2 and the earth was tohu"

Isa 45:18 - "...God did NOT create (bara) the earth tohu..."

I guess all the YEC get to choose which verse they like and discard the one that contradicts the verse they like.
 

2 hours ago, RdJ said:

https://www.hebrewversity.com/deeper-hebrew-meaning-garden-eden/

It can also mean you were in paradise if you ask me. Makes more sense because the tree of knowledge of good and evil was already there, so there was evil.

No one knows what all was in that garden before God created Adam.

2 hours ago, RdJ said:

You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
John 8:44 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/jhn.8.44.NKJV

This refers to "in THAT DAY" when Adam and the woman ate of the tree, because Satan deceived Eve and she ate first and then gave some to Adam.  They died spiritually that day and their physical bodies began to age.

2 hours ago, RdJ said:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. So I would say before God even created the earth satan already fell. Which would explain the darkness when God created the initial earth.

No one knows the state of being with earth when created.  The darkness refers to a wasted earth.

[RdJ]

6 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

That's how I take Ezek 28.

Exactly.  Just the human race was being referred to.

I don't understand your question.  Of course everyone needs the Savior.

 

What is 'even over those who had not sinned'? Who are those who had not sinned? All humans sinned so animals? Biblehub says babies.

But:

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 3:23 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/rom.3.23.NKJV

 

[FreeGrace]

6 minutes ago, RdJ said:

What is 'even over those who had not sinned'? Who are those who had not sinned? All humans sinned so animals? Biblehub says babies.

Could you provide the verse/text you are asking about?  Thanks.

6 minutes ago, RdJ said:

But:

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 3:23 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/rom.3.23.NKJV

All humans are sinners.  Babies are sinners on account of Adam's imputed sin.  

[RdJ]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

This comment seems rather bizarre.  The issue is about death, not who eats who.

?

If you eat a pig you have to kill it first so it dies. The Genesis diet: herbs and fruit because there was no death.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Does the Bible explain a different Eden?  No.  Has to be the same one.

But if he was perfect in Eden, Eden was created on day 4 or something, then there could not have been destruction and darkness because then lucifer fell after God created trees etc like YEC says:

You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. 14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created

 

 

Edited April 16, 2024 by RdJ

[RdJ]

11 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Could you provide the verse/text you are asking about?  Thanks.

All humans are sinners.  Babies are sinners on account of Adam's imputed sin.  

Romans 5:14

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

 

Since every human sinned is that referring to animals? Cause they were always innocent and their blood could cover sin in the O.T.

[RdJ]

 

https://halakhaoftheday.org/2019/11/05/genesis-12-on-darkness-and-abysses/

 

And earth was lifeless, with darkness over the surface of the ocean

DARKNESS

After explaining that at the time of its creation planet earth did not possess any kind of life, the text goes on to describe Earth’s atmosphere. Our current atmosphere is clear and bright, composed of 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen. But the primitive atmosphere with which planet earth was created was different. The Torah describes it with one word “hoshekh” ”, which is usually translated by “darkness”.

The vast majority of classical biblical commentators agree that here “darkness” does not mean “absence of light”, since as in the story of Plato’s cave, one can only speak of the absence of light once light is created. Nahmanides (Ramban) and Eben Ezra proposed that here darkness should be understood as something tangible. Nahmanides compares it with the ninth plague of Egypt, a kind of gas that prevents any kind of light. For Eben Ezra, “that tangible darkness is like a “fog”, toxic and with less oxygen.

Based on these and other opinions we could assert that for the Tora early Earth’s atmosphere was like the present day atmosphere of Venus: formed of three thick layers of dark clouds, are composed of sulfuric acid and carbon dioxide, which do not allow sunlight to reach the surface.

This indication about the primitive Earth’s atmosphere may redefine the previous words tohu vabohu “uninhabited”, a little better. The Tora asserted that there was no life on Earth, and now is saying that the conditions for life are not yet there. In other words, Earth is not only “uninhabited” but at this initial point, because of hoshekh it is also “uninhabitable”.

Once we translate the Hebrew words according to their original meaning we can see some incredible coincidences between what this verse describes in 2 or 3 words and what modern science speculates that occurred at the beginning of our planet.

According to modern science

√ The primitive atmosphere did not allow life. It was dark, lacked free oxygen, and contained ammonia, methane and carbon dioxide.

√ In the beginning early Earth was covered by a huge ocean called Panthalassa. The continents as we know them today, emerged at a later stage.

√ And water? The Tora explains clearly that water was part of the initial inventory of our planet. Modern science, speculations aside, at present time has no demonstrable or convincing explanation of how our planet has so much water….

 

Edited April 16, 2024 by RdJ

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, RdJ said:

If you eat a pig you have to kill it first so it dies. The Genesis diet: herbs and fruit because there was no death.

Of course not in the Garden.  This isn't about animals, but humans.  What would make one think that Paul was writing about death of animals in Romans 5?

1 hour ago, RdJ said:

But if he was perfect in Eden, Eden was created on day 4 or something

Only speculation that Eden was created on day 4.  In fact, "tohu wabohu" very clearly indicates that the earth became a wasteland.  Eden was there BEFORE earth became a wasteland.

1 hour ago, RdJ said:

 like YEC says:

You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. 14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created

This isn't what YEC says.  This is Ezek 28.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, RdJ said:

  FreeGrace said:

Could you provide the verse/text you are asking about?  Thanks.

All humans are sinners.  Babies are sinners on account of Adam's imputed sin. 

Romans 5:14

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

In your previous post, you only quoted part of the verse "even over those who had not sinned" and left out the important part.  

Paul was writing about "those whgo had not sinned ACCORDING TO THE LIKENESS OF THE TRANSGRESSION OF ADAM".

He didn't write about "those who had not sinned", which it seems you think he did.  It is about sinning ACCORDING to the likeness of Adam's sin.

That's why I always ask for the text when others only quote part of a verse.

1 hour ago, RdJ said:

Since every human sinned is that referring to animals?

Answered above.

1 hour ago, RdJ said:

Cause they were always innocent and their blood could cover sin in the O.T.

No, their blood COULD NOT cover sin, ever.  Where do you get that?

The Bible says the yearly sacrifice was an "annual reminder".

Heb 10:3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

I believe Heb 10:4.

Animal sacrifice was a foreshadow of the Christ, who died on the cross and did cover the sins of mankind.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, RdJ said:

https://halakhaoftheday.org/2019/11/05/genesis-12-on-darkness-and-abysses/

And earth was lifeless, with darkness over the surface of the ocean

DARKNESS

After explaining that at the time of its creation planet earth did not possess any kind of life, the text goes on to describe Earth’s atmosphere. Our current atmosphere is clear and bright, composed of 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen. But the primitive atmosphere with which planet earth was created was different. The Torah describes it with one word “hoshekh” ”, which is usually translated by “darkness”.

Tohu wabohu is clearly shown to describe GREAT destruction of the land in Jer 4 and Isa 34.  You can't get around that.

1 hour ago, RdJ said:

The vast majority of classical biblical commentators agree that here “darkness” does not mean “absence of light”, since as in the story of Plato’s cave, one can only speak of the absence of light once light is created. Nahmanides (Ramban) and Eben Ezra proposed that here darkness should be understood as something tangible. Nahmanides compares it with the ninth plague of Egypt, a kind of gas that prevents any kind of light. For Eben Ezra, “that tangible darkness is like a “fog”, toxic and with less oxygen.

None of this matters. What matters is what "tohu wabohu" means, and we know what it means in the 2 passages where the words describe GREAT destruction of land.

So Gen 1;2 cannot be about original creation.  The earth BECAME a wasteland.

1 hour ago, RdJ said:

Based on these and other opinions we could assert that for the Tora early Earth’s atmosphere was like the present day atmosphere of Venus: formed of three thick layers of dark clouds, are composed of sulfuric acid and carbon dioxide, which do not allow sunlight to reach the surface.

We don't need "other opinions".  We only need to understand "tohu wabohu" and what they mean.

1 hour ago, RdJ said:

This indication about the primitive Earth’s atmosphere may redefine the previous words tohu vabohu “uninhabited”, a little better.

Rather, Jer 4 and Isa 34 clearly defines what "tohu wabohu" describes.

1 hour ago, RdJ said:

Once we translate the Hebrew words according to their original meaning we can see some incredible coincidences between what this verse describes in 2 or 3 words and what modern science speculates that occurred at the beginning of our planet.

Except the exact same verb form for "was" in Gen 1:2 IS IS IS translated as "became" in a number of other verses in the OT.

1 hour ago, RdJ said:

According to modern science

√ The primitive atmosphere did not allow life. It was dark, lacked free oxygen, and contained ammonia, methane and carbon dioxide.

√ In the beginning early Earth was covered by a huge ocean called Panthalassa. The continents as we know them today, emerged at a later stage.

√ And water? The Tora explains clearly that water was part of the initial inventory of our planet. Modern science, speculations aside, at present time has no demonstrable or convincing explanation of how our planet has so much water….

This isn't about what science says.  Their measurements may be correct, or close enough, but the only issue is what "tohu wabohu" actually means.  

And the rest of the OT makes clear what "tohu" means.