Rev 16:18 suggests an Old Earth??

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Still Alive said:

It frustrates me when God leaves out details, and then people try to fill them in, and suddenly what they filled in becomes "a hill to die on". I don't get it. 

Human nature.

1 hour ago, Still Alive said:

BTW, good post. It was further enlightening for me.

Thank you.

1 hour ago, Still Alive said:

I confess that many of my "odd" theories are designed just like scientific theories. That is, I make the postulation, and then I test it. i.e. I make a claim based on what scripture does seem to support, then I dig deep into scripture to see if there is anything that contradicts it, and often throw it out there for folks like you who are motivated to test it. And when it passes the test, I hold onto it more strongly.

Objectivity is always good!

1 hour ago, Still Alive said:

But I'm always willing to understand that there may be a piece of evidence in the bible that destroys it. Using the scientific method to test theories regarding bible interpretation is very rewarding.

Good info.  I like to use the Berean "verification method" of determining who is claiming biblical truth vs those who claim unbiblical ideas.

Acts 17:11

[Still Alive]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Human nature.

Thank you.

Objectivity is always good!

Good info.  I like to use the Berean "verification method" of determining who is claiming biblical truth vs those who claim unbiblical ideas.

Acts 17:11

Thanks. I have to admit that I need to be careful using the scientific method regarding things spiritual. I also use prayer, and to be frank, my family has several bonefide miracles that we've witnessed. Two of them healings. My pastor once told me, when I said a lot of this new stuff I'm reading was causing all sorts of thoughts said something like, "that's why not all people's faith survives seminary. 

But truth is, I sometimes wonder if he sometimes supplies a well timed miracle to keep us in his hands. He did that with my wife 35 years ago when her husband died of Leukemia. She was on the cusp, but he reeled her back with a vengeance. 

[FreeGrace]

50 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

Thanks. I have to admit that I need to be careful using the scientific method regarding things spiritual. I also use prayer, and to be frank, my family has several bonefide miracles that we've witnessed. Two of them healings. My pastor once told me, when I said a lot of this new stuff I'm reading was causing all sorts of thoughts said something like, "that's why not all people's faith survives seminary. 

One would think that seminary strengthens one's faith.  But there are quite a few seminaries that have strong theological biases, I guess, enough to shake the faith of some (many?). 

50 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

But truth is, I sometimes wonder if he sometimes supplies a well timed miracle to keep us in his hands. He did that with my wife 35 years ago when her husband died of Leukemia. She was on the cusp, but he reeled her back with a vengeance. 

Yes, God's timing is impeccable!  He knows what we need, and when we need it.  

What is your understanding of the "turn or burn" message?  I've heard the phrase, but not sure what it means, exactly.

Thanks.

[Still Alive]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

One would think that seminary strengthens one's faith.  But there are quite a few seminaries that have strong theological biases, I guess, enough to shake the faith of some (many?). 

Yes, God's timing is impeccable!  He knows what we need, and when we need it.  

What is your understanding of the "turn or burn" message?  I've heard the phrase, but not sure what it means, exactly.

Thanks.

It's best explained in the link in my tag line. http://www.jewishnotgreek.com/

[RV_Wizard]

11 hours ago, Still Alive said:

I think of the earth being without form and void, and covered with waters as the equivalent of an old car that has been salvaged from a field somewhere, rust holes filled, body pounded out to correct shape, sanded and primed. And now it's ready for "new creation". i.e. paint color, trim options, etc.

The problem with that analogy is that there was no factory, no workers, no lights, no building, no energy, no raw materials, and no parts with which to assemble the car.  Remember, prior to Genesis 1:3 there wasn't even a light source.  There was nothing to support a previous existence, unless you are going to claim that the entire solar system and all nearby starts were also obliterated.  A meteor or a global flood could not possibly wipe out the sun, which wasn't actually created until the fourth day of creation.  So, you can't have a re-construction when the original construction could not have possibly supported life in any known form.

9 hours ago, Still Alive said:

Using the scientific method to test theories regarding bible interpretation is very rewarding.

The issue with that is, you can't test anything supernatural with methods designed to test natural cause and effect and get an accurate result.  

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, Still Alive said:

It's best explained in the link in my tag line. http://www.jewishnotgreek.com/

Thanks.  I'm as convinced from Scripture that eternity in the LOF is real as the site is about lost souls being "destroyed".  

I'll just make one point.  If unbelievers will face nothingness, there is no wrath against them.  They are effectively off the hook since they won't exist anymore.  

The LOF was designed for the devil and his angels.  They are immortal beings.  They will not some day cease to exist.  People who reject the free gift of eternal life will spend eternity with them in the LOF.  

[Still Alive]

13 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The problem with that analogy is that there was no factory, no workers, no lights, no building, no energy, no raw materials, and no parts with which to assemble the car.  Remember, prior to Genesis 1:3 there wasn't even a light source.  There was nothing to support a previous existence, unless you are going to claim that the entire solar system and all nearby starts were also obliterated.  A meteor or a global flood could not possibly wipe out the sun, which wasn't actually created until the fourth day of creation.  So, you can't have a re-construction when the original construction could not have possibly supported life in any known form.

The issue with that is, you can't test anything supernatural with methods designed to test natural cause and effect and get an accurate result.  

I think you are inferring scripture that is not there. The bible uses figures of speech all the time, especially in the more ancient writings. When I walk into a room and say there's no light, it doesn't mean literally there is no light and I can not see at all. It means it's dark and needs a strong light source. 

In the bible, God does not impart 24th century scientific knowledge. It gets the general information out and leaves it to us to figure out how everything works. And how it happened, as far as we're concerned, is that God did it. It could have been through natural or literally sudden miraculous means, but God did it. 

The important thing to remember is that He is our creator and the one that we worship, and his Son, Jesus, is, as far as we are concerned, Yahweh, God himself. 

More and more, I tack the phrase "as far as we're concerned" to all of the claims in the bible about events that even the writers did not experience. 

I believe the factory was God, and the raw materials was the earth from which God prduced the surface conditions needed for the age of man. I believe there was not "total" darkness and that the sun did not exist. Rather, He made us aware of its presence via the wording of Genesis, which paralells many ancient writings of the time and the time before. And that's OK. Science gives us a glimpse into how it was done, but only at a cursory level. e.g. it is clear the earth itself already existed 6,000 years ago in the same way that it is now clear that it orbited the Sun. How can one accept the latter but not the former?

However, evolution, as a source for man, is nothing more than a wild hypothesis that has yet to be susceptible to the scientific method. It's a form of religion. Saying "evolution did it" is as "scientifcally" bankrupt as saying "God did it". they are both based on faith, though both are supported by evidence (which is not the same as proof). We have mountains of evidence for a creator. We only have speculation supporting evolution as a source for mankind.

We agree that the supernatural is outside Sciences swim lane. Personally, I believe Christianity and Science can co-exist just as Math and Social studies can co-exist. And they need to stay out of each other's swim lane.

[Still Alive]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Thanks.  I'm as convinced from Scripture that eternity in the LOF is real as the site is about lost souls being "destroyed".  

I'll just make one point.  If unbelievers will face nothingness, there is no wrath against them.  They are effectively off the hook since they won't exist anymore.  

The LOF was designed for the devil and his angels.  They are immortal beings.  They will not some day cease to exist.  People who reject the free gift of eternal life will spend eternity with them in the LOF.  

The book covers that. But I do believe the lake was designed for the enemy spiritual beings. But they are not human. I compare them to bars of steel and humans to wood logs. Throw both in a fire. Their fate is not the same. But again, the book covers it.

FWIW< I believed in ECT for a good 20 years before I switched. But it didn't take much convincing because the more I read the bible and prayed, the less it matched the personality of the God of both testaments, at least IMO. So when I was thrown a lifeline away from that belief, I took it. And that was 15 years or so ago. I've only become more convinced. Heck, a plain reading of John 3:16, the most famous verse in the bible, makes it pretty clear. 

Oh, and this book was by no means my first exposure to this. It's just what I've found to be the "goldilocks" disection of the two issues. There are many much more "scholarly" (and boring to most people) books on the subject. 

But I don't let it drive a wedge between me and other believers. The Good News, for me, is about Jesus free gift of salvation from death - eternal life.

Regarding "wrath", I see the word as very broad, like the word "punishment". Usually wrath or punishment from a thinking being is brought about to teach a lesson to the person to which it is applied. And the second half of the Tribulation will be "wrath" for those on the earth. But the thing we were warned about since genesis is "death." e.g. "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life". I choose eternal life. After all, what lesson is God teaching humans by torturing them for all eternity? Rather, I think our choice is eternal life - or death (the end of existence).

And I've experienced the latter in a form. When I had open heart surgery about 18 months ago I was put under for over 11 hours of surgery. When they put me out, they told me to take a deep breath, then exhale, then take a second breath. And in the middle of the second breath I was waking up about 12 hours later in the recovery room. Same thing happened 16 years ago when I had shoulder surgery. 

I see death as non-existence. That's it. And that is what awaits those that refuse His free gift. They can live their life on this planet like the rest of the animals, which brings with it joy, heartbreak, pain, etc. and then they die. GWT judgement notwithstanding since that is when they will fear the one that can kill both body AND soul. That is when the soul dies.

But I ramble. I hate long posts so I don't blame you if you don't read this.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Still Alive said:

The book covers that. But I do believe the lake was designed for the enemy spiritual beings. But they are not human. I compare them to bars of steel and humans to wood logs. Throw both in a fire. Their fate is not the same. But again, the book covers it.

Matt 25:41 says the LOF was designed "for the devil and his angels".  However, Revelation 20 says the beast, false prophet, the devil and everyone (human) whose name isn't in the book of life will be cast into the LOF.  That's human and angel.

1 hour ago, Still Alive said:

FWIW< I believed in ECT for a good 20 years before I switched. But it didn't take much convincing because the more I read the bible and prayed, the less it matched the personality of the God of both testaments, at least IMO. So when I was thrown a lifeline away from that belief, I took it. And that was 15 years or so ago. I've only become more convinced. Heck, a plain reading of John 3:16, the most famous verse in the bible, makes it pretty clear.

I don't see anything that addresses ECT or annihilation in that verse.

1 hour ago, Still Alive said:

Oh, and this book was by no means my first exposure to this. It's just what I've found to be the "goldilocks" disection of the two issues. There are many much more "scholarly" (and boring to most people) books on the subject. 

But I don't let it drive a wedge between me and other believers. The Good News, for me, is about Jesus free gift of salvation from death - eternal life.

There are 2 sides to everything.  Eternal life for believers, LOF for unbelievers, and it is clear from Rev 20 that they will be there for ever and ever.

1 hour ago, Still Alive said:

Regarding "wrath", I see the word as very broad, like the word "punishment". Usually wrath or punishment from a thinking being is brought about to teach a lesson to the person to which it is applied. And the second half of the Tribulation will be "wrath" for those on the earth. But the thing we were warned about since genesis is "death." e.g. "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life". I choose eternal life. After all, what lesson is God teaching humans by torturing them for all eternity? Rather, I think our choice is eternal life - or death (the end of existence).

And I've experienced the latter in a form. When I had open heart surgery about 18 months ago I was put under for over 11 hours of surgery. When they put me out, they told me to take a deep breath, then exhale, then take a second breath. And in the middle of the second breath I was waking up about 12 hours later in the recovery room. Same thing happened 16 years ago when I had shoulder surgery. 

I see death as non-existence. That's it. And that is what awaits those that refuse His free gift. They can live their life on this planet like the rest of the animals, which brings with it joy, heartbreak, pain, etc. and then they die. GWT judgement notwithstanding since that is when they will fear the one that can kill both body AND soul. That is when the soul dies.

Then your view is really no different than what atheists believe, which is at physical death, all consciousness ceases forever.  That means regardless of your life on earth, whether good or really bad, there are no eternal consequences for either.  Interesting.

1 hour ago, Still Alive said:

But I ramble. I hate long posts so I don't blame you if you don't read this.

[Still Alive]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Matt 25:41 says the LOF was designed "for the devil and his angels".  However, Revelation 20 says the beast, false prophet, the devil and everyone (human) whose name isn't in the book of life will be cast into the LOF.  That's human and angel.

Yes. That's why I used the steel vs wood analogy. Throw both into the same fire and their fate will be different.:)