Rev 16:18 suggests an Old Earth??

[Still Alive]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

I don't see anything that addresses ECT or annihilation in that verse.

For me it is clear as glass. John 3:16 juxtaposes eternal life against "perish". In order to not translate it to death, all sorts of mental gymnastics are required. Yet the word used for Perish is https://biblehub.com/greek/622.htm

Whenever I find I need to choose a weird translation of a word to make my interpretation of scripture work, I believe I should re-evaluate my interpretation. And that is exactly what I started doing 15 years ago. 

But I had one advantage that many Christians (especially in the bible belt where I currently live) don't have. Specifically, I became a Christian at 27. They heard this teaching since the crib. It's really, REALLY hard to change a belief you've had since birth. In fact, Mark twain sums it up nicely: It is easier to fool a man, than to convince a man he is being fooled. 

And I'll add that that is especially if he's been being "fooled" since birth. i.e. I don't blame them for having a hard time changing their views. It was easier for me since it is not a belief drilled into me since birth.

[Still Alive]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

There are 2 sides to everything.  Eternal life for believers, LOF for unbelievers, and it is clear from Rev 20 that they will be there for ever and ever.

I agree with your first statement. However, regarding the fate of men after death, I see the two as "life everlasting" and "no life" i.e. one is alive and the other is dead. And I don't mean metaphorically. 

 

Regarding Revelation 20. I don't need to re-invent the wheel. Simply go to the link I provided and search "Revelation 20". He covers it very well. 

BTW, my best friend has a copy of the book and, although he keeps telling me he respects me regarding all the questions I have about teaching in the bible, he's having a hard time converting from ECT. He doesn't disagree with anything the book says, it's just that he has a hard time changing his mind. I can tell you with utmost confidence it is because he believes what he's been taught since the crib. He's NEVER investigated it, and even when the book lays it out, well, it's kinda like convincing the Tom Cruise character in "Born on the Forth of July" that the US could in any way be the bad guy. 

But we all have our moment, as I did, and I'm sure he will. I can tell by his answers. At least he's willing to take the arguments seriously and not just blow it off. 

 

[Still Alive]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Matt 25:41 says the LOF was designed "for the devil and his angels".  However, Revelation 20 says the beast, false prophet, the devil and everyone (human) whose name isn't in the book of life will be cast into the LOF.  That's human and angel.

I don't see anything that addresses ECT or annihilation in that verse.

There are 2 sides to everything.  Eternal life for believers, LOF for unbelievers, and it is clear from Rev 20 that they will be there for ever and ever.

Then your view is really no different than what atheists believe, which is at physical death, all consciousness ceases forever.  That means regardless of your life on earth, whether good or really bad, there are no eternal consequences for either. 

I disagree. I agree partly with atheists, regarding the fate of unbelievers. And only partly because after the death of the body, which is merely a tent we occupy, there is the GWT Judgement, where the actual person (soul) will be terminated.

And that is the basic fate believers are saved from. Of course, that is only the most basic part of Jesus' message. The meat is his teaching about what you do with your life now that you are his. 

And I have to say, if what we do in this life does not matter, then why are we even here. I believe we are here as a "boot camp" to learn to trust him for some purpose or other after this life. Otherwise, why are we not simply individually "raptured" at baptism?

Not to put too fine a point on it, when Jesus talked of the fate of the lost being Gehenna (Hell is a made up word after the fact), I believe anyone listening at the time grasped what he meant. It was outside Jerusalem and they were thrown away like refuse, to be utterly consumed by fire and worms (metaphorically speaking), rather than just sit there and smolder like most of the garbage.

So yes, I think atheists get it partly right. But then, isn't that true of most enemies of God?

[FreeGrace]

45 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

Yes. That's why I used the steel vs wood analogy. Throw both into the same fire and their fate will be different.:)

I don't see any believers being anywhere near the LOF or the GWT judgment.  Their judgment (evaluation) will be 1,000 years earlier at the Second Advent.  2 Cor 5:10

[FreeGrace]

42 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

For me it is clear as glass. John 3:16 juxtaposes eternal life against "perish". In order to not translate it to death, all sorts of mental gymnastics are required. Yet the word used for Perish is https://biblehub.com/greek/622.htm

I think the problem/issue is resolved by understanding that the LOF is also called the "Second Death" in Revelation several times.  The Bible is clear that there will be a singular resurrection of all believers and a singular resurrection of all unbelievers.  Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15.  And 1 Cor 15:23 says when all believers (those who belong to Jesus) will be resurrected:  at the Second Advent (when He comes).  

And Rev 20:4-6 clearly shows that the Second Advent and GWT judgment will be 1,000 years apart, in which all unblievers will be resurrected back into their mortal physical bodies to appear at the GWT judgment.  So when the unbeliever is cast into the LOF, his mortal body will physically die again; hence, the "second death".  But Rev 20:10 is clear about the beast, false prophet and Satan all will be tormented "for ever and ever".  I see no reason to take any of that metaphorically.  

[FreeGrace]

40 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

I agree with your first statement. However, regarding the fate of men after death, I see the two as "life everlasting" and "no life" i.e. one is alive and the other is dead. And I don't mean metaphorically.

Well, spiritual death is defined as separation from God.  All unbelievers will certainly be separated from God in the LOF.

40 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

Regarding Revelation 20. I don't need to re-invent the wheel. Simply go to the link I provided and search "Revelation 20". He covers it very well.

Let me guess:  their view is to approach ch 20 as just metaphorical and not literal.

40 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

BTW, my best friend has a copy of the book and, although he keeps telling me he respects me regarding all the questions I have about teaching in the bible, he's having a hard time converting from ECT. He doesn't disagree with anything the book says, it's just that he has a hard time changing his mind. I can tell you with utmost confidence it is because he believes what he's been taught since the crib. He's NEVER investigated it, and even when the book lays it out, well, it's kinda like convincing the Tom Cruise character in "Born on the Forth of July" that the US could in any way be the bad guy. 

But we all have our moment, as I did, and I'm sure he will. I can tell by his answers. At least he's willing to take the arguments seriously and not just blow it off. 

I've studied all of this very thoroughly and Rev 20:10 is key.  When Satan is cast into the LOF, he is joining the beast and false prophet, who have already been there for 1,000 years.  And the verse is clear;  "where THEY (all of them) will be tormented day and night for ever and ever".  

Real hard to get around those words.

[FreeGrace]

38 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

I disagree. I agree partly with atheists, regarding the fate of unbelievers. And only partly because after the death of the body, which is merely a tent we occupy, there is the GWT Judgement, where the actual person (soul) will be terminated.

If unblievers will cease to exist, then they simply avoid any consequence for their lack of belief.  Physical death and ceasing of consciousness means no awareness, no consequence of actions prior to death.    I'll never agree with atheists.  btw, the Bible calls sthem "fool" in Psa 14:1 and 53:1.  I believe that.

38 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

And that is the basic fate believers are saved from. Of course, that is only the most basic part of Jesus' message. The meat is his teaching about what you do with your life now that you are his. 

And I have to say, if what we do in this life does not matter, then why are we even here.

Of course there are consequences of what we do in this life.  First, during our physical life on earth, we face God's anger for disobedience.  It's called discipline of His rebellious children.  And Heb 12:11 says it is painful.  Paul made the same point in 1 Cor 11:30.

38 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

I believe we are here as a "boot camp" to learn to trust him for some purpose or other after this life. Otherwise, why are we not simply individually "raptured" at baptism?

Because God has a purpose for every believer.  Eph 2:10

38 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

Not to put too fine a point on it, when Jesus talked of the fate of the lost being Gehenna (Hell is a made up word after the fact), I believe anyone listening at the time grasped what he meant. It was outside Jerusalem and they were thrown away like refuse, to be utterly consumed by fire and worms (metaphorically speaking), rather than just sit there and smolder like most of the garbage.

Yet, Rev 20:10 is clear enough that the beast and false prophet (both humans) and Satan, will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.  

38 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

So yes, I think atheists get it partly right. But then, isn't that true of most enemies of God?

I think atheists get it all wrong.  The Bible calls them fools.  Rom 1:19-20 tells us that God has revealed Himself, His power and attributes to everyone through creation, so those who say there is no God (Psa 14:1 and 53:1) are simply fools.  Self deceived.

Because they don't believe that God exists, they believe that there is no consequence for any actions after they die.  Nice thought, if true.  But there will be torment day and night for ever and ever.  

[Still Alive]

45 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

I don't see any believers being anywhere near the LOF or the GWT judgment.  Their judgment (evaluation) will be 1,000 years earlier at the Second Advent.  2 Cor 5:10

I wasn't talking about believers.

[Still Alive]

36 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

I think the problem/issue is resolved by understanding that the LOF is also called the "Second Death" in Revelation several times.  The Bible is clear that there will be a singular resurrection of all believers and a singular resurrection of all unbelievers.  Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15.  And 1 Cor 15:23 says when all believers (those who belong to Jesus) will be resurrected:  at the Second Advent (when He comes).  

And Rev 20:4-6 clearly shows that the Second Advent and GWT judgment will be 1,000 years apart, in which all unblievers will be resurrected back into their mortal physical bodies to appear at the GWT judgment.  So when the unbeliever is cast into the LOF, his mortal body will physically die again; hence, the "second death".  But Rev 20:10 is clear about the beast, false prophet and Satan all will be tormented "for ever and ever".  I see no reason to take any of that metaphorically.  

I see the second death as the death of the person/soul that occupied the body that died. I believe the "person" will be resurrected, only I interpret it more like "waking up" as I did after surgery. On a side note, I believe that just as with my surgery, as far as they are concerned the amount of time between their "resurrection" and their physical death on this world will be instantaneous, even if they died 50, 500, or thousands of years ago.

Regarding the beast, false prophet and Satan. I could agree with that.  But again, go to the link I provided and search "Revelation 20:10". 

He discusses at length. 

[Still Alive]

38 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Well, spiritual death is defined as separation from God.  All unbelievers will certainly be separated from God in the LOF.

Except God is everywhere. How can that work? And I think that is really beside the point. Since I do not believe anything can live outside of God's presence, it simply means their spirit/person dies, just like their flesh died. i.e. they are gone. Removed from existence. I try to research the words used in our english bibles, compare to the original language and the meanings of the words when the language was not dead, and move on from there without trying to add any "special" meanings. 

In a discussion about this over a decade ago, someone said to me, "But that is not how the bible defines death." My response: "The bible is not a dictionary. Dictionaries define words and the bible then uses them do communicate their dictionary definitions.

That's why I used to crack up when Luke accused Obe-wan of lying to him when he said Lukes father was dead. And Obe-wan said he was dead, in a way. Baloney. He lied. And to cut him slack, he lied in the way I somethimes lie to people. That is, I know they will infer something other than what I actually said, and I want them to.

I don't think God does that.