Rev 16:18 suggests an Old Earth??

[Still Alive]

36 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

I think atheists get it all wrong.  The Bible calls them fools.  Rom 1:19-20 tells us that God has revealed Himself, His power and attributes to everyone through creation, so those who say there is no God (Psa 14:1 and 53:1) are simply fools.  Self deceived.

Because they don't believe that God exists, they believe that there is no consequence for any actions after they die.  Nice thought, if true.  But there will be torment day and night for ever and ever.  

I don't think anyone gets it "all wrong". But I agree with the rest of your post except for what I think you are implying here: "Because they don't believe that God exists, they believe that there is no consequence for any actions after they die."

The thing is, I don't believe there are consequences after "they" die. Because, to me, "they" is the person/soul who dies in the second death. And that is their consequence after the death of the body. 

Thing is, I don't see God as vindictive. He created man and we blew it. The result is death. But he offers a way out. Those that take it will not die, though the earthly tent they occupy will die. And then the person dies after the GWT judgement.

IMO, God's not interested in "getting even" or "making them suffer". He's simply being true to his word. i.e. do this, and that will happen. And it does. Death. Of the person. All gone.

[FreeGrace]

21 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

I see the second death as the death of the person/soul that occupied the body that died.

I base my understanding on Rev 20:10 that unbelievers and fallen angels will "be tormented day and night for ever and ever".

21 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

I believe the "person" will be resurrected, only I interpret it more like "waking up" as I did after surgery.

Jesus gave us a fairly clear glimpse of souls after death when He told about a poor man Lazarus and a rich man, in Luke 16.  

21 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

On a side note, I believe that just as with my surgery, as far as they are concerned the amount of time between their "resurrection" and their physical death on this world will be instantaneous, even if they died 50, 500, or thousands of years ago.

What is that based on?

21 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

Regarding the beast, false prophet and Satan. I could agree with that.  But again, go to the link I provided and search "Revelation 20:10". 

He discusses at length. 

Apparently he uses the excuse of metaphors there.  

The words "for ever and ever" occur 11 times in Revelation, in describing how long the Lord lives;  ie:  He lives for ever and ever.  So that phrase does refer to eternity.

And when adding the words "day and night", which is specific time, it is clear that 'for ever and ever' a never ending 'day and night'.

[FreeGrace]

23 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

Except God is everywhere. How can that work? And I think that is really beside the point. Since I do not believe anything can live outside of God's presence, it simply means their spirit/person dies, just like their flesh died.

God is able to separate Himself from anyone He chooses.  He is able to limit His presence.  On the cross, Jesus asked, "why have you forsaken Me?"  There was no fellowship between Father and Son while He was on the cross.  That is spiritual death, when Jesus was separated from His Father.

23 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

i.e. they are gone. Removed from existence.

Atheists love to think this.  Missing the consequences of their failure to accept the free gift of eternal life.  

23 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

I try to research the words used in our english bibles, compare to the original language and the meanings of the words when the language was not dead, and move on from there without trying to add any "special" meanings.

I do the same.  I've given no 'special' meaning to any word.  James defined physical death in 2:26 as "the body without the spirit".  Separation, that is what physical death is.  The soul leaves the body.

23 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

In a discussion about this over a decade ago, someone said to me, "But that is not how the bible defines death." My response: "The bible is not a dictionary. Dictionaries define words and the bible then uses them do communicate their dictionary definitions.

See above.

23 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

I don't think God does that.

Right.  God does not lie.  And humans and fallen angels will "be tormented day and night, for ever and ever".  God said so to John, who wrote it all down.

[FreeGrace]

24 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

I don't think anyone gets it "all wrong". But I agree with the rest of your post except for what I think you are implying here: "Because they don't believe that God exists, they believe that there is no consequence for any actions after they die."

If a person ceases to exist, they cannot experience any consequence at all.

24 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

The thing is, I don't believe there are consequences after "they" die. Because, to me, "they" is the person/soul who dies in the second death. And that is their consequence after the death of the body. 

That only means no consequence.  And the Bible says "they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever".  Pretty clear to me.

24 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

Thing is, I don't see God as vindictive.

Neither do I.  But there are consequences for our actions.  No one gets a free pass.

In fact, Rom 1:19-20 says that man has no excuse.  The consequence is "to be tormented day and night for ever and ever, in a place called the second death, where their resurrected but still mortal bodies will die again as they are cast into the LOF, but their soul "will be tormented day and night for ever and ever".

24 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

He created man and we blew it. The result is death.

But God had the solution ready and waiting.  And "on the day you eat of it, you shall die" in the literal Hebrew is, "on the day you eat of it, DYING, you shall DIE".

Two kinds of death was mentioned to Adam.  On the day they ate the fruit, their human spirits DIED, which separated them from God so that when He visited the garden in the evening, all they could do was hide from Him.  And that day started the physical process that we call aging, which results in physical death at some point.

24 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

But he offers a way out. Those that take it will not die, though the earthly tent they occupy will die. And then the person dies after the GWT judgement.

The only thing that will die after the GWT judgment is the mortal physical body that was resurrected so the soul could attend the GWT judgment.  So all unbelievers will physically die twice.

24 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

IMO, God's not interested in "getting even" or "making them suffer".

Of course not.  But He has made promises and explained consequences.

24 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

He's simply being true to his word. i.e. do this, and that will happen. And it does. Death. Of the person. All gone.

 Nope.  Rev 20:10 doesn't allow that to occur.  Every unbeliever will "be tormented day and night for ever and ever".

Throughout Revelation, John used the words "for ever and ever" to mean never ending, and mostly describing the King's rule.  And when John included "day and night", it is clear that that 24 hr period is never ending, per Rev 20:10

[Still Alive]

18 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

I base my understanding on Rev 20:10 that unbelievers and fallen angels will "be tormented day and night for ever and ever".

Why?

[Still Alive]

19 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Jesus gave us a fairly clear glimpse of souls after death when He told about a poor man Lazarus and a rich man, in Luke 16.  

That is a parable about the five brothers. The reference to "heaven and hell" do not even align with what the bible says about them. It's focusing on the five brothers, which ties into what actually happens to Jesus later. And, interestingly, Not only Jesus was resurrected, but so was Lazarus, until he died again. 

[Still Alive]

7 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

inds of death was mentioned to Adam.  On the day they ate the fruit, their human spirits DIED, which separated them from God so that when He visited the garden in the evening, all they could do was hide from Him.  And that day started the physical process that we call aging, which results in physical death at some point.

The only thing that will die after the GWT judgment is the mortal physical body that was resurrected so the soul could attend the GWT judgment.  So all unbelievers will physically die twice.

Of course not.  But He has made promises and explained consequences.

 Nope.  Rev 20:10 doesn't allow that to occur.  Every unbeliever will "be tormented day and night for ever and ever".

Throughout Revelation, John used the words "for ever and ever" to mean never ending, and mostly describing the King's rule.  And when John included "day and night", it is clear that that 24 hr period is never ending, per Rev 20:10

I'm sorry, but all the points you bring up are addressed in that link I supplied. Every single point you've brought up I 've argued before and some are convinced and some are not. I used to be ECT, but I had never studied it. I just believed what people told me. When I studied it, I was broadsided. Read that link.

I have to move on. I'm not trying to disrespect you. I just have other stuff I have to do, and the answers to all of the things I've seen in your posts are in that link. If you really want to get together with people who will jump into this with both feet, I recommend group "rethinking hell" in facebook. 

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, Still Alive said:

FreeGrace said:

I base my understanding on Rev 20:10 that unbelievers and fallen angels will "be tormented day and night for ever and ever".

Why?

Because the verse actually says so.

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

So, who are the "they"?  The beast, the false prophet, and the devil (and we know from Matt 25:41 that the LOF was prepared for "the devil and his angels".

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, Still Alive said:

FreeGrace said:

Jesus gave us a fairly clear glimpse of souls after death when He told about a poor man Lazarus and a rich man, in Luke 16. 

That is a parable about the five brothers.

That's what annihilationists must claim.  It is not a parable because, unlike all the parables, actual people are named and speak.  Scholars believe that Jesus was referring to a widely known rich man who had a poor man, Laz begging at his gate.  So when Jesus mentioned them, the people listening to Jesus would have nodded in recognition of who Jesus was referring to.

It is a literal real story.  But since it refutes the ideas of annihilists, they must reject that and claim it is only a parable.

However, if that were true, what would be the point of telling a non real story about real people after death speaking to each other.  

How would you answer that?

3 hours ago, Still Alive said:

The reference to "heaven and hell" do not even align with what the bible says about them. It's focusing on the five brothers, which ties into what actually happens to Jesus later.

Rather, the focus was on the 2 men who died and both went to Hades, which has several compartments:  one for the saved, called Paradise or Abraham's Bosom, and a compartment that was called 'torments', or was simply described as what the residents of that compartment were feeling.  There was no focus on the 5 brothers, they were only mentioned at the end of the story.

3 hours ago, Still Alive said:

And, interestingly, Not only Jesus was resurrected, but so was Lazarus, until he died again. 

The Laz of Luke 16 was not the Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead.  

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, Still Alive said:

I'm sorry, but all the points you bring up are addressed in that link I supplied. Every single point you've brought up I 've argued before and some are convinced and some are not.

Typical of just about every subject.  ;)

3 hours ago, Still Alive said:

I used to be ECT, but I had never studied it. I just believed what people told me. When I studied it, I was broadsided. Read that link.

Sorry.  I have no interest.  I have studied the Bible closely and am totally convinced that Rev 20:10 is what all unbelievers will ultimately receive:  "tormented day and night for ever and ever".  Just what the verse says.

3 hours ago, Still Alive said:

I have to move on. I'm not trying to disrespect you. I just have other stuff I have to do, and the answers to all of the things I've seen in your posts are in that link. If you really want to get together with people who will jump into this with both feet, I recommend group "rethinking hell" in facebook. 

No problem.  We've hijacked this thread by going off topic.  I've dealt with many annihilationists over the years and none of them were able to provide a sensible refutation of what Rev 20:10 says, and all of them called Laz and the rich man a parable, which makes literally no sense, since any soul life after death of an unbeliever is rejected.  So Jesus would have been telling a big whopper if your view were true.  And no one could explain to me why would it be a parable if none of it could be true??

Jesus used parables to use examples of real life to teach principles.