Rev 16:18 suggests an Old Earth??

[RV_Wizard]

10 hours ago, Still Alive said:

I think you are inferring scripture that is not there.

Not at all.  Gap theory takes place between the first and second verse of Genesis.  Light had not yet been created and there was no dry land yet.  Before something is created it doesn't exist.  That's not hard to follow.

10 hours ago, Still Alive said:

When I walk into a room and say there's no light, it doesn't mean literally there is no light and I can not see at all. It means it's dark and needs a strong light source.

After God created the light, He separated the darkness from the light.  It wasn't just dark, it was absolute darkness.  There was no light source.

10 hours ago, Still Alive said:

How can one accept the latter but not the former?

The sun was created on day four.  Previously, the earth was likely rotating, but there was nothing for it to orbit.

 

[FreeGrace]

12 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Not at all.  Gap theory takes place between the first and second verse of Genesis.  Light had not yet been created and there was no dry land yet.  Before something is created it doesn't exist.  That's not hard to follow.

This is all speculation.  Since we know nothing of WHY the earth became tohu wabohu, no one knows anything about light.  Since God created the heavens and earth in v.1, it should be obvious that there was light when God created the heavens and eaerth.  

12 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

After God created the light, He separated the darkness from the light.  It wasn't just dark, it was absolute darkness.  There was no light source.

pDuring the 6 day restoration process.  God doesn't create in processes.  Rather, He speaks things into existence.  And not by processes.

12 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The sun was created on day four.  Previously, the earth was likely rotating, but there was nothing for it to orbit.

Pure speculation.  We have no idea.  We have only what God's Word SAYS.  And it very clearly describes the earth as having become an uninhabitable wasteland after God created it.  We know nothing beyond that.

The Greek/Hebrew scholars who translated the OT into Koine (biblical) Greek around 300 BC knew there was a start contrast between v.1 and 2 and properly translated the conjunction that begins v.2 as "de" rather than how it is translated into English as "and" from the Greek "kia".

In the Hebrew, there is only one conjunction and only context guides which kind it is.  Since those scholars understood what "tohu wabohu" described, they saw the huge contrast between creation/construction in v.1 and destruction in v.2.

[Still Alive]

12 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Not at all.  Gap theory takes place between the first and second verse of Genesis.  Light had not yet been created and there was no dry land yet.  Before something is created it doesn't exist.  That's not hard to follow.

After God created the light, He separated the darkness from the light.  It wasn't just dark, it was absolute darkness.  There was no light source.

The sun was created on day four.  Previously, the earth was likely rotating, but there was nothing for it to orbit.

 

IMHO, you are trying to convert poetry to scientific fact. And it is poetry translated from a very ancient language. I actually have room in my world view to believe either of us could be right, but I have a feeling neither of us is absolutely right. 

I consider the message of Genesis to be that God is our creator. And I appreciate that. I prefer not to get entangled in details of a story told, at least to some degree, like a game of "Telephone". Unlike the rest of the bible, The beginning of genesis comes from multiple cultures and was written by men who did not witness the events nor knew any men who witnessed them. I see it as poetry. It gives a "general idea" of what happened and is not meant to provide raw details of the manufacture of our age. 

But that is only my opinion. And since I wasn't there either, I would not hang my hat on it. 

[Still Alive]

15 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Because the verse actually says so.

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

So, who are the "they"?  The beast, the false prophet, and the devil (and we know from Matt 25:41 that the LOF was prepared for "the devil and his angels".

Two things: First, I was focusing on the word, "unbelievers" in the claim. That is not part of the verse. That's why I asked "why". And I consider that word to be the most powerful in the English language. It is the difference between 1st degree murder and killing in self defense. 

So, my "why" is about "unbelievers" within the context of the claim. And by "why", I mean what would God be accomplishing by putting unbelieving humans in such a place for all eternity, considering that he warns us over and over that the wages of sin is death - which is a word humans have always understood?

[Still Alive]

15 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

That's what annihilationists must claim.  It is not a parable because, unlike all the parables, actual people are named and speak.  Scholars believe that Jesus was referring to a widely known rich man who had a poor man, Laz begging at his gate.  So when Jesus mentioned them, the people listening to Jesus would have nodded in recognition of who Jesus was referring to.

It is a literal real story.  But since it refutes the ideas of annihilists, they must reject that and claim it is only a parable.

However, if that were true, what would be the point of telling a non real story about real people after death speaking to each other.  

How would you answer that?

Rather, the focus was on the 2 men who died and both went to Hades, which has several compartments:  one for the saved, called Paradise or Abraham's Bosom, and a compartment that was called 'torments', or was simply described as what the residents of that compartment were feeling.  There was no focus on the 5 brothers, they were only mentioned at the end of the story.

The Laz of Luke 16 was not the Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead.  

Hades is the grave. It is not heaven nor hell. And as I've said with other aspects of this...never mind. I have debated these points for over a decade. Though there are many articles written on all the things we've discussed as well as this, the link I provided covers it nicely. 

And if you're looking for more than the goldilocks rundown, start here: The fire that consumes

Edited July 20, 2024 by Still Alive

[Still Alive]

15 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Typical of just about every subject.  ;)

Sorry.  I have no interest.  I have studied the Bible closely and am totally convinced that Rev 20:10 is what all unbelievers will ultimately receive:  "tormented day and night for ever and ever".  Just what the verse says.

No problem.  We've hijacked this thread by going off topic.  I've dealt with many annihilationists over the years and none of them were able to provide a sensible refutation of what Rev 20:10 says, and all of them called Laz and the rich man a parable, which makes literally no sense, since any soul life after death of an unbeliever is rejected.  So Jesus would have been telling a big whopper if your view were true.  And no one could explain to me why would it be a parable if none of it could be true??

Jesus used parables to use examples of real life to teach principles.

Well, like I always say, make of it what you will. We all do. 

I would recommend that you check out conflicting views on Lazarus and the Rich man, though. I think it is a very important parable when you get past the "heaven and hell" thing. There is a lot there. And a lot of people have some detailed things to say about it.

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, Still Alive said:

Two things: First, I was focusing on the word, "unbelievers" in the claim. That is not part of the verse. That's why I asked "why". And I consider that word to be the most powerful in the English language. It is the difference between 1st degree murder and killing in self defense.

Without the context, I don't know what verse is being referenced.  

3 hours ago, Still Alive said:

So, my "why" is about "unbelievers" within the context of the claim. And by "why", I mean what would God be accomplishing by putting unbelieving humans in such a place for all eternity, considering that he warns us over and over that the wages of sin is death - which is a word humans have always understood?

I don't know why anyone would ask any other human being about any "why" regarding God's plan and design.  If there isn't an explanation regarding something God did or will do, no one can answer the question.

My conviction is two-pronged.  The first one is about Luke 16 and Lazarus and the rich man who died.  The second is Rev 20:10.

These convince me that there is existence of the soul after death for all human beings.

 

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, Still Alive said:

Hades is the grave. It is not heaven nor hell.

Rather, before Christ's crucifixion and ascension, the souls of ALL human beings went to Hades.  And Luke 16 shows 2 compartments, one for the saved and one for the unsaved.  

3 hours ago, Still Alive said:

And as I've said with other aspects of this...never mind. I have debated these points for over a decade. Though there are many articles written on all the things we've discussed as well as this, the link I provided covers it nicely.

But since the link is about souls ceasing to exist, I cannot accept that, based on my two-pronged evidence from Scripture.

3 hours ago, Still Alive said:

And if you're looking for more than the goldilocks rundown, start here: The fire that consumes

This is the Amazon summary of the book:

Evangelical Christians affirm together that a dreadful destiny awaits those who reject God's grace throughout life. According to the traditional view, that destiny will involve unending conscious torment in hell.

{That is my view, based on the two-pronged evidence.}

However, believers are increasingly questioning that understanding, as both unbiblical and inconsistent with the character of God revealed in the Scriptures and in the man Jesus Christ.

{And the devil has "led the whole world astray" - 1 John 5:19 and "deceives the whole world - Rev 12:9}

This internationally acclaimed book--now fully updated, revised, and expanded--carefully examines the complete teaching of Scripture on the subject of final punishment. It concludes that hell is a place of total annihilation, everlasting destruction, although the destructive process encompasses conscious torment of whatever sort, intensity, and duration God might require in each individual case.

{And there is no evidence of this in the Bible.}

[Still Alive]

11 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Without the context, I don't know what verse is being referenced.  

I don't know why anyone would ask any other human being about any "why" regarding God's plan and design.  If there isn't an explanation regarding something God did or will do, no one can answer the question.

My conviction is two-pronged.  The first one is about Luke 16 and Lazarus and the rich man who died.  The second is Rev 20:10.

These convince me that there is existence of the soul after death for all human beings.

 

Revelation 10:10 is the verse I'm talking about. I thought I included it in the text I quoted from your post. Regarding "why" God would do something, He explains his reasons all the time. And all the time He warns us that if we do X, then Y will happen. 

And as he explains the "why" of his actions one gets a better understanding of His actions, and His personality, just as one does with a person they have a relationship with. For example, if someone told me my wife is in the back yard torturing kittens, I'd not believe it. I have a personal relationship with her and know lies about her when I hear them. 

Same with God. He exposes His personality in how he deals with his human enemies over and over again in the OT. He ends them. They may do some suffering in this life, to be sure, but if they remain an enemy he simply ends them. He sends them to hades/sheol/grave. Done and done. And every warning tells us what this one does: The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus. It's not about heaven or hell. It's not about geography. It's about condition. You are either or alive or dead. It's all so simple - and binary - and has been since Genesis. He has not wavered at all. But people seem to want to "scare" people into church for whatever reason. That was never the gospel of Jesus or any of his disciples. The message was always about Grace. I embrace it.

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, Still Alive said:

Well, like I always say, make of it what you will. We all do. 

I would recommend that you check out conflicting views on Lazarus and the Rich man, though. I think it is a very important parable when you get past the "heaven and hell" thing. There is a lot there. And a lot of people have some detailed things to say about it.

The problem with claiming something is a parable is that anyone can basically say anything they want to say about what it means or refers to.

Since I take it as literal as it reads, it actually means just what Jesus said.  He gave mankind a clear glimpse of what happens to all souls after physical death.

After His death, Jesus went and "preached to the spirits in prison" - 1 Peter 3:19.  We know that certain fallen angels have been in a compartment of Hades for a very long time.  2 Peter 2:4 - For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell (tartarus) and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

After preaching to the spirits in prison, Jesus took all the saved souls to heaven, and in the NT, all those who die as saved go immediately to be "at home with the Lord", per 2 Cor 5:6-9 - Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.  So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.

Since we know that the humans, beast and FP, will have been in the LOF for 1,000 years before being joined by the devil and his angels, and then continue to "be tormented day and night for ever and ever", there is no reason to believe that the rest of all unbelievers won't join them as well.  All unbelievers will be cast into the LOF, oer Rev 20:15.