Rev 16:18 suggests an Old Earth??

[FreeGrace]

4 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

Revelation 10:10 is the verse I'm talking about. I thought I included it in the text I quoted from your post

That verse isn't related to the discussion.  I'm guessing a typo.  I did mention Rev 20:10 which says - And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Annihilationists cannot get around this verse.

4 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

Regarding "why" God would do something, He explains his reasons all the time. And all the time He warns us that if we do X, then Y will happen.

When there are options, sure.  But Gen 1:2 doesn't give us any details on why God restored the earth, other than the Hebrew "tohu wabohu", which means 'uninhabitable wasteland'.

4 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

Same with God. He exposes His personality in how he deals with his human enemies over and over again in the OT. He ends them.

He ends their life, rather.  God even does this with disobedient believers, as seen in 1 Cor 11:30 - That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

'sleep' is a euphemism for physical death.

4 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

They may do some suffering in this life, to be sure, but if they remain an enemy he simply ends them. He sends them to hades/sheol/grave. Done and done.

Hardly.  The Bible is very clear about a resurrection for the unsaved.  Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15 clearly says there will be two resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved.

Your view misses the resurrection of the unsaved.

4 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

 It's about condition. You are either or alive or dead. It's all so simple - and binary - and has been since Genesis.

It's not that simple.  Since Adam died spiritually "on the day"he ate the fruit, every human is born physically alive and spiritually dead.  That's why everyone needs to be born again, or "made alive" per Eph 2:5.  

Saved people only die physically once, but are born twice.

Unsaved people will die physically twice, but are only born once.

4 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

He has not wavered at all. But people seem to want to "scare" people into church for whatever reason. That was never the gospel of Jesus or any of his disciples. The message was always about Grace. I embrace it.

In addition to God's grace, one must also face God's justice.  It is no less important.  We know that no one has any excuse for not recognizing God as Creator and being thankful to Him (Rom 1:19-21).  We know that every unbeliever will be cast into the LOF (Rev 20:11-15).

The only reason people will end up in the LOF is because they ignored or refused the offer (Titus 2:11) of the free gift of eternal life (Rev 20:15).

iow, they just didn't believe in God or in His promise.  They will be getting what they are accountable for.  They have no excuse.  But there is every opportunity to believe.  Most just ignore the opportunities.

We can't just emphaize God's grace and ignore His equally perfect Justice.  

[RV_Wizard]

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Since God created the heavens and earth in v.1, it should be obvious that there was light when God created the heavens and eaerth.  

Obvious to whom?  That's not what the Bible says.  Just because you're trying to force a 19th century heresy to conform with the Bible which absolutely contradicts it.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

God doesn't create in processes.  Rather, He speaks things into existence.

That's your claim.  God's word says something completely different.  Whom should we believe?  Genesis one describes a six day creation.  The Fourth Commandment declares a six day creation.  Your claim is based on your say so.  Personally, I prefer to believe the Bible.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 And it very clearly describes the earth as having become an uninhabitable wasteland after God created it.

It's so clear that nobody entertained that belief for 59 centuries.

We've had this discussion.  You're wrong.  Ruin Reconstruction Theory is heresy.  Before Genesis 1:2, the earth was not a paradise turned into a wasteland, it was a floating blob in total darkness.  The Bible describes it.  I believe it.  Case closed.

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said:

Since God created the heavens and earth in v.1, it should be obvious that there was light when God created the heavens and earth.  

Obvious to whom?

To those without agendas.  To those who are objective.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  That's not what the Bible says. 

All you have is what English translators wrote.  Jeremiah wouldn't have quoted from Gen 1:2 if Moses was describing a creation process.  Jeremiah would have been an idiot if he had.  He fully understood what Moses wrote and knew what was coming to the land of Israel, which is why he quoted from Gen 1:2.  Obviously.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Just because you're trying to force a 19th century heresy to conform with the Bible which absolutely contradicts it.

That is just hilarious.  I neither care for, or even know what 19th century claims are.  I do know what Moses, Jeremiah and Isaiah wrote and the clear contexts in Jer and Isa.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

That's your claim.  God's word says something completely different.

My claim is what both Jeremiah and Isaiah said about total destruction and the two Hebrew words which were used by Moses in Gen 1:2.  So it is your claim that is wrong.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Whom should we believe?

The Bible, of course.  But your view only accepts what English translators did to Gen 1:2.  I've shown how "tohu" is translated elsewhere.  Have you forgotten already?

tohu -

Gen 1:2 - formless

1 Sam 12:21 - futile things NASB ISB, useless NIV, worthless Christian Standard Bible

Job 26:7 - desolation literal standard version, waste place Aramaic Bible in Plan English

Isa 34:11 -  chaos NIV Berean Standard Bible, confusion ESV KJV ASV, desolation NASB,

Isa 45:18 - waste place NASB Christian Standard Bible ASV ERV JPS Tanakh, chaos ISV NRSV

Isa 45:19 - wasteland NASB Berean Standard Bible Christian Standard Bible, chaos ISV

Isa 59:4 - confusion (empty words) NASB Legacy Standard Bible, worthless words Christian Standard Bible

Jer 4:23 - formless ISV, waste ASV ERV JPS Tank NAB NET NRSV New Heart English Bible World English Bible Youngs Literal Translation, chaos Aramaic Bible in Plain English

Nothing that is observed can be “formless”.  So Gen 1:2 and her 4:23 are in error.  The other places where tohu is found are shown in various translations.

Given how tohu wabohu is translated throughout the OT, it is obvious that it was not translated correctly in Gen 1:2.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Genesis one describes a six day creation.  The Fourth Commandment declares a six day creation.  Your claim is based on your say so.  Personally, I prefer to believe the Bible.

Seems you've forgotten a whole lot.  Genesis 1 describes what God AFTER the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland.

The 4th commandment didn't use the Hebrew word for "create" which is 'bara' but rather 'asah', which is consistently translated as "made", as in "made from existing materials.  Whereas 'bara' means to create out of nothing.

But that seems to be just an inconvenient truth for those with an agenda.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

It's so clear that nobody entertained that belief for 59 centuries.

Except Jeremiah and Isaiah.  But I guess they just don't count, huh.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

We've had this discussion.  You're wrong.  Ruin Reconstruction Theory is heresy. 

The words refute you in the original.  If Moses was using "tohu wabohu" in a construction sense, then neither Jeremiah or Isaiah would have used those 2 very same words in their chapters on the total destruction of the land.

I really don't understand how anyone wouldn't understand this very simple point.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Before Genesis 1:2, the earth was not a paradise turned into a wasteland, it was a floating blob in total darkness.  The Bible describes it.  I believe it.  Case closed.

What you really believe is the myth that the earth is only 6 days older than Adam.  And for that to be believed, one must ignore the original Hebrew words and what they mean throughout the Bible.

No one can explain why the Hebrew/Greek translators of the LXX rendered the conjunction at the beginning of v.2 as "de" (but) rather than most of the English translations as "and" which is 'kai' in the Greek.

The Hebrew doesn't have "and/but" conjunctions.  Only one.  And it is determined by context.  Should be obvious that these Hebrew/Greeek scholars took notice of "tohu wabohu" and realized there was a huge contrast between v.1 and 2.  

Everything will be revealed in eternity.  There will be no more mysteries.  But I stand on what God's Word says and I have paid attention to how "tohu" is used throughout the OT.  And "tohu wabohu" as well.  

It seems some just cannot separate an old earth from evolution.  

I accept that both Jeremiah and Isaiah understood that Moses was writing about total destruction of the earth, which is why they both used the same 2 words to describe total destruction of the land.

If "tohu wabohu" does only mean the beginning part of the process of God creating the earth, then Jeremiah and Isaiah were idiots for using those 2 words when describing total destruction of the land.

You can't have it both ways.  What the words mean in Gen 1:2 mean the same thing in Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11, both of which describe total destruction of the land.

And that can't be refuted.  Just rejected, for no reason whatsoever.

[RV_Wizard]

28 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

All you have is what English translators wrote.  Jeremiah wouldn't have quoted from Gen 1:2 if Moses was describing a creation process.

I have proved you wrong there.  He was quoting Scriptures, as most prophets do, to describe a land so barren as if nothing had even been created yet.  I even gave you links to Hebrew experts to explain it to you, but you have an unteachable faith in this 19th century heresy.  By the way, all you have to believe is what MODERN translators with an agenda have told you.

32 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

That is just hilarious.

I know.  I've been laughing at your posts for quite some time.  You can prove anything when you take things out of context.  Psalm 18:13 The Lord also thundered in the heavens.  Psalm 68:33 To Him who rides upon the highest heavens, which are from ancient times.  Proof that God rides a Harley.

37 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

I've shown how "tohu" is translated elsewhere.

Yes, you show 15% of translations that can be twisted to agree with you and ignore the 85% that cannnot.

39 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Genesis 1 describes what God AFTER the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland.

Just as the Psalms describe God riding a Harley.  Satan didn't come up with your favorite heresy unto the 19th century.  If he had though people were gullible enough to believe it earlier, we would have seen it by the 16th century.

41 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Except Jeremiah and Isaiah.

No, they believed in the Scripture, which is why they quoted from it.  I would show you links again to validate that, but you are unteachable.

42 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

What you really believe is the myth that the earth is only 6 days older than Adam.

God personally codified that "myth" in the fourth commandment.  You should read it sometime.  Jesus said if you didn't believe Moses you won't believe Him.  As guess you don't, because Jesus said "In the beginning," not "During the reconstruction."

44 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Everything will be revealed in eternity.

Where Jesus will ask you why you promoted a false religion robbing God of the glory of His creation and calling Him a liar because He stated that it was a six day creation.

47 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

....then Jeremiah and Isaiah were idiots for using those 2 words when describing total destruction of the land.

Perhaps the idiots are the ones who don't realize that nearly every word can have multiple meanings depending on the context.  Please list for me the definitions of the word "run;" all 564 of them.

[RV_Wizard]

23 hours ago, Still Alive said:

IMHO, you are trying to convert poetry to scientific fact.

There IS poetry in the Bible, but Moses was not a poet and Genesis reads as a very simple narrative.  It was completed with a day of rest, creating the 7-day week.  The number 7 is used throughout the Bible as a number of completion.

23 hours ago, Still Alive said:

I see it as poetry

In Exodus 20:11, the finger of God carved into stone tablets that God created the heavens, the earth and all that lives upon it in six days and rested on the seventh.  The Ten Commandments are not poetry.

[RV_Wizard]

19 hours ago, Still Alive said:

That was never the gospel of Jesus or any of his disciples. The message was always about Grace.

Actually, Jesus taught more about Hell than He did about Heaven.  Shoel was a temporary location; rest for the righteous, torment for the evil, and a might chasm between which nobody could cross.  When Christ died He emptied Shoel of the righteous and took them to Heaven with Him.  Christ was ALWAYS the only way to Heaven.  The Hell side of Shoel still exists for the unsaved.  They will be there until they stand before the Great White Throne of Judgment.  Whether they are cast into the lake of fire and destroyed instantly or whether they remain for eternity is for God to judge.  

The wise thing to do is to accept Christ and to tell all of your family and friends to do that same.  The wise thing to do it to accept the Bible as the infallible word of God.  It is okay to share your opinions, as YOU do.  It is NOT okay to teach your opinion as the truth that supersedes the Scriptures, as others here do.  The false teachers and false prophets will be cast out.  The Revelation tells us where.

While you may not like people warning against Hell, It IS a real place and Jesus spent much of His ministry warning us about it.  It's far better to be thought unenlightened and spend eternity with God, than to be contemporary and spend eternity separated from God.  I personally believe that the most punished people in Hell will be able to see Heaven and what they COULD HAVE had.

[Still Alive]

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The problem with claiming something is a parable is that anyone can basically say anything they want to say about what it means or refers to.

Since I take it as literal as it reads, it actually means just what Jesus said.  He gave mankind a clear glimpse of what happens to all souls after physical death.

 

 

Regarding Lazarus and the rich man, I probably should throw this out to give a perspective on where I'm coming from. I look at it holistically. It's in two parts and probably longer than you want to read, but it also pretty much covers it. Especially at the very end, which makes sense only if you read the rest of it. It's in two parts.

https://www.concordant.org/expositions/human-destiny/rich-man-lazarus-part-one/

https://www.concordant.org/expositions/human-destiny/rich-man-lazarus-part-two/

[Still Alive]

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

That verse isn't related to the discussion.  I'm guessing a typo.  I did mention Rev 20:10 which says - And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Annihilationists cannot get around this verse

First, yes, it was a typo. Second, I cannot emphasize this enough: It's not talking about human beings. That's why I use the analogy of elohim being steel and human flesh being wood. Fire has a different impact on each. The verse is about elohim beings, not human beings.

[Still Alive]

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Actually, Jesus taught more about Hell than He did about Heaven.  Shoel was a temporary location; rest for the righteous, torment for the evil, and a might chasm between which nobody could cross.  When Christ died He emptied Shoel of the righteous and took them to Heaven with Him.  Christ was ALWAYS the only way to Heaven.  The Hell side of Shoel still exists for the unsaved.  They will be there until they stand before the Great White Throne of Judgment.  Whether they are cast into the lake of fire and destroyed instantly or whether they remain for eternity is for God to judge.  

The wise thing to do is to accept Christ and to tell all of your family and friends to do that same.  The wise thing to do it to accept the Bible as the infallible word of God.  It is okay to share your opinions, as YOU do.  It is NOT okay to teach your opinion as the truth that supersedes the Scriptures, as others here do.  The false teachers and false prophets will be cast out.  The Revelation tells us where.

While you may not like people warning against Hell, It IS a real place and Jesus spent much of His ministry warning us about it.  It's far better to be thought unenlightened and spend eternity with God, than to be contemporary and spend eternity separated from God.  I personally believe that the most punished people in Hell will be able to see Heaven and what they COULD HAVE had.

Jesus talked of Gehenna as an analogy. He never once mentioned "hell", though some translations use that later made up word. That's why some translations say Gehenna, rather than Hell. It is a real place with a real history.

[FreeGrace]

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

I have proved you wrong there.

No such thing.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  He was quoting Scriptures, as most prophets do, to describe a land so barren as if nothing had even been created yet.

Haven't you read the whole chapter yet??  Jeremiah was describing the total destruction that was coming to the land.  

A word cannot be used to describe construction in one text and total destruction in the only other 2 texts.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  I even gave you links to Hebrew experts to explain it to you, but you have an unteachable faith in this 19th century heresy.

Rather, those Hebrew experts are biased against an old earth.  Jeremiah knew exactly what he was doing.  As well as Isaiah.

Here is the whole text, from v.5-23.  I will highlight the pertinent words.

Declare in Judah, and proclaim in Jerusalem, and say,
“Blow the trumpet through the land;
cry aloud and say,
‘Assemble, and let us go
into the fortified cities!’
Raise a standard toward Zion,
flee for safety, stay not,
for I bring disaster from the north,
and great destruction.
A lion has gone up from his thicket,
a destroyer of nations has set out;
he has gone out from his place
to make your land a waste;
your cities will be ruins
without inhabitant.
For this put on sackcloth,
lament and wail,
for the fierce anger of the LORD
has not turned back from us.”
“In that day, declares the LORD, courage shall fail both king and officials. The priests shall be appalled and the prophets astounded.” Then I said, “Ah, Lord GOD, surely you have utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, ‘It shall be well with you,’ whereas the sword has reached their very life.”
At that time it will be said to this people and to Jerusalem, “A hot wind from the bare heights in the desert toward the daughter of my people, not to winnow or cleanse, a wind too full for this comes for me. Now it is I who speak in judgment upon them.”
Behold, he comes up like clouds;
his chariots like the whirlwind;
his horses are swifter than eagles—
woe to us, for we are ruined!
O Jerusalem, wash your heart from evil,
that you may be saved.
How long shall your wicked thoughts
lodge within you?
For a voice declares from Dan
and proclaims trouble from Mount Ephraim.
Warn the nations that he is coming;
announce to Jerusalem,
“Besiegers come from a distant land;
they shout against the cities of Judah.
Like keepers of a field are they against her all around,
because she has rebelled against me,
declares the LORD.
Your ways and your deeds
have brought this upon you.
This is your doom, and it is bitter;
it has reached your very heart.”
Anguish over Judah's Desolation
My anguish, my anguish! I writhe in pain!
Oh the walls of my heart!
My heart is beating wildly;
I cannot keep silent,
for I hear the sound of the trumpet,
the alarm of war.
Crash follows hard on crash;
the whole land is laid waste.
Suddenly my tents are laid waste,
my curtains in a moment.
How long must I see the standard
and hear the sound of the trumpet?
“For my people are foolish;
they know me not;
they are stupid children;
they have no understanding.
They are ‘wise’—in doing evil!
But how to do good they know not.”
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was without form and void;
and to the heavens, and they had no light.

This last verse, 23, describes the result of this destroyer of nations (v.7) that will "besiege" the land (v.16).

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  By the way, all you have to believe is what MODERN translators with an agenda have told you.

lol.  Using the original Hebrew language and how the 2 words are used in all 3 texts is hardly listening to "modern translators".  

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

I've been laughing at your posts for quite some time.  You can prove anything when you take things out of context.

Laugh all you want.  What you can't do is refute what I have shared from Scripture.  And you cannot prove that I've taken anything out of context.

I'm not the one claiming "tohu" describes construction in one text yet destruction in two other texts.  

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Psalm 18:13 The Lord also thundered in the heavens.  Psalm 68:33 To Him who rides upon the highest heavens, which are from ancient times.  Proof that God rides a Harley.

No, not really.  But there is quite an imagination there.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Yes, you show 15% of translations that can be twisted to agree with you and ignore the 85% that cannnot.

So somehow I have the "power" to get a number of translations to twist to "agree" with me.  And your math completely misses the point.  I'm dealing with how 2 Hebrew words are used in all 3 texts where they occur.  That is the whole issue.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Just as the Psalms describe God riding a Harley.

Sorry to have to correct such an error here, but the Psalms doesn't.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

No, they believed in the Scripture, which is why they quoted from it.  I would show you links again to validate that, but you are unteachable.

What you clearly believe is what the majority of English translations say, but not what the original Hebrew says, based on all 3 texts where they occur.  Ignoring that is the glaring error here.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

God personally codified that "myth" in the fourth commandment.

Go ahead and ignore/reject the FACT that 'bara' and 'asah' are different.  Gen 1:1 used 'bara' for "create".  In the 4th commandment, 'asah' was used.  And you just dismiss the FACT because it refutes your claim.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

 Jesus said if you didn't believe Moses you won't believe Him.

That would apply to anyone who has been shown how "tohu wabohu" is used in ALL 3 texts and yet rejects the clear meaning of the words, in favor of English tranlations.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  As guess you don't, because Jesus said "In the beginning," not "During the reconstruction."

Well, since there is a clear gap between the 2 verses, I'm not surprised at this warped comment.

Original creation is found in v.1.  v.2 is "but, the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland".  That's what Moses wrote, but unfortunately, a whole bunch of English translators couldn't figure out why the earth became that way so they took the easy way to make it look like v.2 describes creation.  

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Where Jesus will ask you why you promoted a false religion robbing God of the glory of His creation and calling Him a liar because He stated that it was a six day creation.

Since I've clearly and patiently proved that God NEVER stated that creation of the earth took 6 days, and your rejection of the FACT of the difference between 'bara' and 'asah', it is clear who is promoting a false teaching.

I've readily acknowledged from Psa 33:6 and 9 that God spoke the entire creation by the word of His mouth.  So your false accusation about "robbing God" of anything is just pitiful.  

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Perhaps the idiots are the ones who don't realize that nearly every word can have multiple meanings depending on the context.  

As I've said many times already, "formless" can be used but only when describing something that lacks what other similar objects have, and I even gave an example.  But that has been repeatedly ignored so you wouldn't have to deal with it, which proves your claim wrong.

Given the clear contextual meaning of "tohu wabohu" in Jer 4 and Isa 34:11, an earth that was turned into an uninhabitable wasteland would lack the appearance of how God originally created it.  

Just like my example of a flat chested woman who is described as "formless" even though she may also be described as a "bean pole" or "broom stick".

Thus proving that she can be described either way.  So what?  After the earth was destroyed, it lacked all the features on it and that is the only way "formless" would be legitimate.

Will bias and antagonism allow any FACT get through?