Rev 16:18 suggests an Old Earth??

[FreeGrace]

21 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

Regarding Lazarus and the rich man, I probably should throw this out to give a perspective on where I'm coming from. I look at it holistically. It's in two parts and probably longer than you want to read, but it also pretty much covers it. Especially at the very end, which makes sense only if you read the rest of it. It's in two parts.

https://www.concordant.org/expositions/human-destiny/rich-man-lazarus-part-one/

https://www.concordant.org/expositions/human-destiny/rich-man-lazarus-part-two/

Yes, way longer than I would prefer to read, esp since there was much wandering around and too many irrelevant things.

Bottom line:  the story is as straight up a literal account of 2 men who died and where they went.  Period.  Doesn't take 2 very long documents to cover.  One went to where the saved go and the other where the unsaved go.  Both were quite conscious.  

It can't be a parable since Father Abraham is a real person and speaks with the unsaved man.

[FreeGrace]

20 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

 I cannot emphasize this enough: It's not talking about human beings. That's why I use the analogy of elohim being steel and human flesh being wood. Fire has a different impact on each. The verse is about elohim beings, not human beings.

Actually, the Bible IS talking about human beings.  What else would the Bible be describing?  We know that Satan is a being, though of a different race.  (human vs angelic).  

I have never heard the term "elohim beings" so please explain what is meant.  Sounds like "God beings".  Why would God cast "God beings" into the LOF?

Your view is becoming more and more confusing.

[Still Alive]

11 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Yes, way longer than I would prefer to read, esp since there was much wandering around and too many irrelevant things.

Bottom line:  the story is as straight up a literal account of 2 men who died and where they went.  Period.  Doesn't take 2 very long documents to cover.  One went to where the saved go and the other where the unsaved go.  Both were quite conscious.  

It can't be a parable since Father Abraham is a real person and speaks with the unsaved man.

That's the fun part. I forced my way through it and discovered the irrelevant parts are anything but. I'll give you the high points of it's claims, though:

1. Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable, but none of the others there are either. Rather, they are five parts of a single parable.

2. The description of heaven and hell is aimed directly at the Pharisees from their own "non-inspired" writings. He's literally using their claimed description of heaven and hell against them. 

3. All of those parables, as a whole, are a testimony against the Pharisees to whom he is talking.

The rest of the text is in essence backing all of those (and other points) up.

Edited July 21, 2024 by Still Alive

[Still Alive]

8 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Actually, the Bible IS talking about human beings.  What else would the Bible be describing?  We know that Satan is a being, though of a different race.  (human vs angelic).  

I have never heard the term "elohim beings" so please explain what is meant.  Sounds like "God beings".  Why would God cast "God beings" into the LOF?

Your view is becoming more and more confusing.

It is human vs elohim. Elohim is the spiritual beings in the unseen realm. e.g. Angels, Seraphim, etc. They are all job titles. So is satan. Think of them as fish in the ocean and we are land creatures. It's touched on in Psalm 82, though many scholars try to explain it away.

I've learned that the teaching in the bible has little in common with what we all learned in children's Sunday school, where we were taught, as kids, by adults that got their information the same way, etc. The bible has so much other information right in front of our noses that we literally don't see. It's like self hypnosis - where you are looking in a cluttered room for an item and don't see it even though it is right there in front of you.

I've learned through study that a LOT of the teaching of the bible is like that. Even in context. No, I mean ESPECIALLY in context.

BTW Yahweh is the Elohim. The head spiritual being. And Jesus is the human, The "head" human.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Still Alive said:

That's the fun part. I forced my way through it and discovered the irrelevant parts are anything but. I'll give you the high points of it's claims, though:

Thanks.

1 hour ago, Still Alive said:

1. Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable, but none of the others there are either. Rather, they are five parts of a single parable.

That claim will have to be proved.  In Luke 15 and 16, the other 4 accounts have no proper names.  The account of Laz stands in contrast and even names an actual human being very well known to Jews;  Abraham.  And that account follows the other 4, in which no proper name occurs.

1 hour ago, Still Alive said:

2. The description of heaven and hell is aimed directly at the Pharisees from their own "non-inspired" writings. He's literally using their claimed description of heaven and hell against them.

Jesus is clearly describing what happened after death for everyone; believer or unbeliever.  In the NT Paul describes the life and death of a believer in 2 Cor 5:6-8.

1 hour ago, Still Alive said:

3. All of those parables, as a whole, are a testimony against the Pharisees to whom he is talking.

In your first point, you said none of the 5 accounts are parables.  Now you call them parables??

1 hour ago, Still Alive said:

The rest of the text is in essence backing all of those (and other points) up.

Thanks for your summary.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Still Alive said:

It is human vs elohim. Elohim is the spiritual beings in the unseen realm. e.g. Angels, Seraphim, etc. They are all job titles. So is satan. Think of them as fish in the ocean and we are land creatures. It's touched on in Psalm 82, though many scholars try to explain it away.

What?  The word "Elohim" is translated as God in the plural, indicating the Trinity.  So this doesn't make sense.  The Bible describes two races:  human and angel.  Where do you clearly see anything about these "Elohim beings"?

1 hour ago, Still Alive said:

I've learned through study that a LOT of the teaching of the bible is like that. Even in context. No, I mean ESPECIALLY in context.

BTW Yahweh is the Elohim. The head spiritual being. And Jesus is the human, The "head" human.

No, Jesus is NOT "the human".  He is THE God-Man.  Unique in all creation.

[RV_Wizard]

1 hour ago, Still Alive said:

Jesus talked of Gehenna as an analogy.

Sorry, that's not true.  Jesus spoke more about Hell than anyone else in the Bible.  Hell is a real place.  Learn about it here.

1 hour ago, Still Alive said:

He never once mentioned "hell", though some translations use that later made up word.

You DO know that Jesus spoke Aramaic, not English, right?  Gehenna: (in Judaism and the New Testament) hell.  It's the same place in a different language.

 

[Still Alive]

21 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Thanks.

That claim will have to be proved.  In Luke 15 and 16, the other 4 accounts have no proper names.  The account of Laz stands in contrast and even names an actual human being very well known to Jews;  Abraham.  And that account follows the other 4, in which no proper name occurs.

Jesus is clearly describing what happened after death for everyone; believer or unbeliever.  In the NT Paul describes the life and death of a believer in 2 Cor 5:6-8.

In your first point, you said none of the 5 accounts are parables.  Now you call them parables??

Thanks for your summary.

Seriously, you need to read the whole thing. If you had, you would not make any of the comments about the summary that you did. It's all backed up, and in almost excruciating detail. Like so many scholarly reads, it can be difficult at times. I had to read some sentences a second time to really get the meaning.

[Still Alive]

19 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

What?  The word "Elohim" is translated as God in the plural, indicating the Trinity.  So this doesn't make sense.  The Bible describes two races:  human and angel.  Where do you clearly see anything about these "Elohim beings"?

No, Jesus is NOT "the human".  He is THE God-Man.  Unique in all creation.

Read the lexicon for Psalm 82. Either God is chastising the holy spirit or he's talking to other "gods". I believe it's the latter. And the word used in elohim, plural.

[Still Alive]

16 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Sorry, that's not true.  Jesus spoke more about Hell than anyone else in the Bible.  Hell is a real place.  Learn about it here.

You DO know that Jesus spoke Aramaic, not English, right?  Gehenna: (in Judaism and the New Testament) hell.  It's the same place in a different language.

 

I'm sorry, but I have to end this particular discussion. Before I studied this issue, that article would have been convincing. But not any more. I've argued almost every point in that article ad-nausium over the last 15 years. The ones I haven't argued I need not address because they are just fluff. 

Again, I recommend the link in my tag line and the book, The Fire that Consumes, by Edward Fudge