Rev 16:18 suggests an Old Earth??

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Still Alive said:

Seriously, you need to read the whole thing. If you had, you would not make any of the comments about the summary that you did. It's all backed up, and in almost excruciating detail. Like so many scholarly reads, it can be difficult at times. I had to read some sentences a second time to really get the meaning.

I've already noted the two points that annihilationists cannot get around.  

1.  The souls of the saved remain conscious and go to be with the Lord and the souls of the unsaved remain conscious and go to Hades, to the compartment of 'torments', awaiting their physical resurrection and appearance at the Great White Throne judgment, after which they will be cast into the LOF, where their resurrected bodies will die again (second death) but their souls will "be tormented day and night for ever and ever".

2.  Rev 20:10 is clear enough.  The beast and false prophet (individual human beings) will have been in the LOF since the Second Advent of Christ, meaning they will have been in the LOF for 1,000 years before the devil joins them.  And then it says "THEY will be tormented day and night for ever and ever".

Just can't get around all that.

And now, you've added another claim:  so-called Elohim beings.  Well, that's just a name.  Not mentioned in Scripture. 

Everything I've said is found in Scripture.

Unless the beast and false prophet can be proved to be not individuals but something or else, and that ONLY the beast and false prophet plus all fallen angels will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, I have no reason to change my view.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, Still Alive said:

Read the lexicon for Psalm 82. Either God is chastising the holy spirit or he's talking to other "gods". I believe it's the latter. And the word used in elohim, plural.

I just did a quick google of Psalm 82.  Seems most view "gods" as human judges, over which God has supreme authority.

I don't think this has any relevance to annihilationism.

Your response doesn't explain who the "gods" are.  It is either created angels, or humans.  And it doesn't matter regarding annihilationism.

[RV_Wizard]

3 hours ago, Still Alive said:

Again, I recommend the link in my tag line and the book, The Fire that Consumes, by Edward Fudge

The publication I am more concerned with was commissioned by King James and has 66 books within it.  Reading it, we learn that Heaven is real, that Hell is real, and that each of us will spend eternity in one place or another.  Only by accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior can we escape eternal separation from God in Hell.  If that upsets you know, think of how upset you would be if you went there.  Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.  No man comes to the Father but by Him.  Until you are saved, you are condemned.  That's just the way it is.

[Still Alive]

17 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I've already noted the two points that annihilationists cannot get around.  

1.  The souls of the saved remain conscious and go to be with the Lord and the souls of the unsaved remain conscious and go to Hades, to the compartment of 'torments', awaiting their physical resurrection and appearance at the Great White Throne judgment, after which they will be cast into the LOF, where their resurrected bodies will die again (second death) but their souls will "be tormented day and night for ever and ever".

2.  Rev 20:10 is clear enough.  The beast and false prophet (individual human beings) will have been in the LOF since the Second Advent of Christ, meaning they will have been in the LOF for 1,000 years before the devil joins them.  And then it says "THEY will be tormented day and night for ever and ever".

Just can't get around all that.

And now, you've added another claim:  so-called Elohim beings.  Well, that's just a name.  Not mentioned in Scripture. 

Everything I've said is found in Scripture.

Unless the beast and false prophet can be proved to be not individuals but something or else, and that ONLY the beast and false prophet plus all fallen angels will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, I have no reason to change my view.

In all seriousness, CI advocates get around those all the time without breaking a sweat. That's why you have to read the arguments made by both sides before you can come to a reasoned and defensible position. It's what I did. I did it with my beliefs regarding the rapture as well. 

I've included links to a few of the more scholarly arguments on the CI side. I recommend reading them. And you needn't fear them. If they are false, the Lord will protect you. I sincerely believe that.

[Still Alive]

17 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I just did a quick google of Psalm 82.  Seems most view "gods" as human judges, over which God has supreme authority.

I don't think this has any relevance to annihilationism.

Your response doesn't explain who the "gods" are.  It is either created angels, or humans.  And it doesn't matter regarding annihilationism.

It has to do with elohim. And be careful about siding with the "consensus" on such things. The arguments against it talking about humans are the strongest of all. One of the most important things I learned in my Christian walk is to not believe teachers simply because they seem to know more than me, or they are older, or they've been a Christian longer. We are talking about issues where highly educated Christians disagree. 

Try this:

https://drmsh.com/the-plural-elohim-of-psalm-82-gods-or-men/

 

[Still Alive]

15 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The publication I am more concerned with was commissioned by King James and has 66 books within it.  Reading it, we learn that Heaven is real, that Hell is real, and that each of us will spend eternity in one place or another.  Only by accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior can we escape eternal separation from God in Hell.  If that upsets you know, think of how upset you would be if you went there.  Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.  No man comes to the Father but by Him.  Until you are saved, you are condemned.  That's just the way it is.

Reading the bible is not really all that useful, IMO. Rather, I think it is critical to study it. A simple reading can really get you way off the reservation. Often it is simply because one is reading a flawed translation, or a flawed part of an otherwise useful translation. That's why we go to teachers to broaden our perspective on what we are reading or studying. That's why schools don't just hand you a Trigonometry book and wish you luck. 

 

BTW, what you call "eternal separation from God in hell", I call what the bible calls it:

John 3:16 - eternal life vs perish.

Romans 6:23 Wages of sin = death; gift of God = eternal life

But like I said, there are lots of sources that go into great detail about this. Edward Fudges book is one. The link in my tag line is a really good "reader's digest" version, and this two parter about Lazarus and the Rich man, though the most difficult read of the three, is very informative (parts 1 and 2 below):

https://www.concordant.org/expositions/human-destiny/rich-man-lazarus-part-one/

https://www.concordant.org/expositions/human-destiny/rich-man-lazarus-part-two/

BTW, if you prefer videos, there are a ton here: https://rethinkinghell.com/

Edited July 22, 2024 by Still Alive

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, Still Alive said:

In all seriousness, CI advocates get around those all the time without breaking a sweat.

Yet, you haven't even tried.  I've given you my reasons from Scripture.

3 hours ago, Still Alive said:

That's why you have to read the arguments made by both sides before you can come to a reasoned and defensible position. It's what I did. I did it with my beliefs regarding the rapture as well. 

All I need is the Bible.  What 'rapture', btw?  :)

3 hours ago, Still Alive said:

I've included links to a few of the more scholarly arguments on the CI side. I recommend reading them. And you needn't fear them. If they are false, the Lord will protect you. I sincerely believe that.

Are you not able to show me why my points aren't valid"

[RV_Wizard]

8 hours ago, Still Alive said:

BTW, what you call "eternal separation from God in hell", I call what the bible calls it:

Revelation 20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 13:41-42 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:45-46  Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Luke 12:47-48 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

 

 

[Still Alive]

19 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Yet, you haven't even tried.  I've given you my reasons from Scripture.

I've tried for almost two decades. Now I just supply links. No need to re-invent the wheel. 

I see this as one of those "lead a horse to water" things.

[Still Alive]

19 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

All I need is the Bible.  What 'rapture', btw?  :)

Teachers are a great help too. And regarding the "rapture", exactly!