Before the "pre, mid post," what is your support scriptural for the SEVEN YEARS of tribulation?

[Desopixi Seilynam]

Inside of the 70 year Babylonian captivity:

"I Daniel (thought I) understood by the books,
the number of years, the word of the Lord which came by Jeremiah,
how that He would accomplish
70 years in the desolation of Jerusalem."

Daniel 9:1-2

Jeremiah's prophecy:
"It shall come to pass after 70 years
that I will punish the king of Babylon...
and .... against all nations.
for many nations and great kings
shall serve themselves of Babylon
and I will repay them according to their deeds,
and according to the works of their own hands.

And I took the cup (of fury) at the Lords hand
and made all the nations to drink,
unto whom the Lord had sent me.

First, Jerusalem and the cities of Judah,
and the kings thereof,
to make them a desolation...
and all the kingdoms of the world
and the king of Babylon (Satan, the anti-Christ)
shall drink after them"
Jeremiah 25:12-14,17,18,26

 

"And I (Daniel) set my face to pray......
Oh Lord...
let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem."
Daniel 9:4, 16

 

"And whiles I was praying... the man Gabriel... informed me"
Daniel 9:21-22

(the immediate context is that Daniel is praying about the 70
year captivity he is in; Daniel 1:21, 9:1-2. Gabriel already gave Daniel
a specific interpretation of the vision Daniel saw in chapter 8,
Gabriel now comes and gives Daniel
more information on how to understand Jeremiah 25,
that Daniel was reading)

"I am now come to give thee skill in understanding"
Daniel 9:22

"Seventy captivities are determined upon thy people....."
Daniel 9:24

"Know therefore and understand that from the going
forth of the command to restore and to build up
Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince
shall be seven captivities and 62 weeks."
Daniel 9:25

 

Seven 70 year captivities = 7 * 70 = 490 years.

490 years and sixty two weeks.

(from Darius to the time of Christ)

Let us think here for a moment.

What 'scholars' do is take seven plus 62,
then they multiply that by 7 and get 483.

But 69 literal weeks is not 400 years.
1 year is about 52 weeks.

Sixty nine weeks does not "amount to 483 years",
therefore that interpretation does not make actual sense.

However seven captivities plus 62 weeks makes sense,
and fits the immediate context perfectly.

And is actually 490 years plus 62 weeks,
the actual time that past from Darius to Christ,
Gabriel told Daniel plain straightforward information,
nothing cryptic or metaphorical.

 

And that point strongly shows
that the correct translation is captivities.

In short, in Daniel we are told that there are thousands of years,
4,900 years worth of captivity, 70 sets of 70 year captivity,
the Babylonian captivity Daniel was in was the first.

Another captivity we can clearly see is from 0 a.d. to 70 a.d.

Another is during the so called crusades ending around 1026 a.d.

The history associated with the repeated capture of Jerusalem
is muddy and I believe has been hidden by evil men and scribes
throughout time.

But we can see that a captivity, in Israel, started in 1967.

No matter who you want to say is a Jew or not,
from both sides, many would agree,
captivity certainly started in 1967.

Therefore it should end by 2037, end with world war,
just as Jeremiah prophesied.
Jeremiahs prophecy, as explained by Gabriel,
does not represent just one captivity,
there are 70 such 70 year captivities to happen.

The last captivity is the time of the beast and false prophet.
 

And he shall confirm a covenant with many
for one captivity. And in the middle of the captivity,
he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation (to himself 2nd Thess 2:4)
to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations
he shall make it (the whole world Rev 6:8) desolate,
even until the consummation (of time)
and that determined (fire) shall be poured upon the desolator (Revelation 20:9)

 

The anti-Christ has 70 years, not just 7.

After 35 years I believe he will come forward as Satan in the flesh
wanting the world to worship him openly and accept what he has to offer.
 

 

Taking the all the above into account,
the total tribulation is therefore 4,900 years worth of captivity,
including the death and resurrection of Christ as a bad time,
indeed at that time Jerusalem was in captivity by the Romans,
and afterwards still a prophesied thousands of years to go.

 

[BlindSeeker]

8 hours ago, RdJ said:

Yes you can read it 2 ways. I never even thought of reading it like you do.

But that was not the end. If you believe that was the end then this is it. This is the new heaven and earth. A full preterist said that to a widow. She said: This is not heaven. My husband is dead.

 

 

Is this the new heaven and earth?

Absolutely not.

Is there an ultimate end this one?

Yes.

Is there a final coming of the Lord to this present world?

Yes. 

However, scripture teaches us that there have multiple ends of things and nations with the Lord coming to the end of His patience with them. Thus there have been many "comings" of the Lord to execute His wrath on them.

Do Catholics have some things right?

Yes.

Do JW's have some things right?

Yes.

Do Calvinist and Armenians each have some things right?

Yes.

Do the Preterist have some things right?

Absolutely yes.

Does anyone have all things correct?

Absolutely no. 
 

If you are interested, here's a "A Compilation of Scripture, Commentaries, and History on Matthew Chapter 24" for your consideration.

[BlindSeeker]

On 5/6/2024 at 7:48 AM, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Inside of the 70 year Babylonian captivity:

"I Daniel (thought I) understood by the books,
the number of years, the word of the Lord which came by Jeremiah,
how that He would accomplish
70 years in the desolation of Jerusalem."

Daniel 9:1-2

Jeremiah's prophecy:
"It shall come to pass after 70 years
that I will punish the king of Babylon...
and .... against all nations.
for many nations and great kings
shall serve themselves of Babylon
and I will repay them according to their deeds,
and according to the works of their own hands.

And I took the cup (of fury) at the Lords hand
and made all the nations to drink,
unto whom the Lord had sent me.

First, Jerusalem and the cities of Judah,
and the kings thereof,
to make them a desolation...
and all the kingdoms of the world
and the king of Babylon (Satan, the anti-Christ)
shall drink after them"
Jeremiah 25:12-14,17,18,26

 

"And I (Daniel) set my face to pray......
Oh Lord...
let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem."
Daniel 9:4, 16

 

"And whiles I was praying... the man Gabriel... informed me"
Daniel 9:21-22

(the immediate context is that Daniel is praying about the 70
year captivity he is in; Daniel 1:21, 9:1-2. Gabriel already gave Daniel
a specific interpretation of the vision Daniel saw in chapter 8,
Gabriel now comes and gives Daniel
more information on how to understand Jeremiah 25,
that Daniel was reading)

"I am now come to give thee skill in understanding"
Daniel 9:22

"Seventy captivities are determined upon thy people....."
Daniel 9:24

"Know therefore and understand that from the going
forth of the command to restore and to build up
Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince
shall be seven captivities and 62 weeks."
Daniel 9:25

 

Seven 70 year captivities = 7 * 70 = 490 years.

490 years and sixty two weeks.

(from Darius to the time of Christ)

Let us think here for a moment.

What 'scholars' do is take seven plus 62,
then they multiply that by 7 and get 483.

But 69 literal weeks is not 400 years.
1 year is about 52 weeks.

Sixty nine weeks does not "amount to 483 years",
therefore that interpretation does not make actual sense.

However seven captivities plus 62 weeks makes sense,
and fits the immediate context perfectly.

And is actually 490 years plus 62 weeks,
the actual time that past from Darius to Christ,
Gabriel told Daniel plain straightforward information,
nothing cryptic or metaphorical.

 

And that point strongly shows
that the correct translation is captivities.

In short, in Daniel we are told that there are thousands of years,
4,900 years worth of captivity, 70 sets of 70 year captivity,
the Babylonian captivity Daniel was in was the first.

Another captivity we can clearly see is from 0 a.d. to 70 a.d.

Another is during the so called crusades ending around 1026 a.d.

The history associated with the repeated capture of Jerusalem
is muddy and I believe has been hidden by evil men and scribes
throughout time.

But we can see that a captivity, in Israel, started in 1967.

No matter who you want to say is a Jew or not,
from both sides, many would agree,
captivity certainly started in 1967.

Therefore it should end by 2037, end with world war,
just as Jeremiah prophesied.
Jeremiahs prophecy, as explained by Gabriel,
does not represent just one captivity,
there are 70 such 70 year captivities to happen.

The last captivity is the time of the beast and false prophet.
 

And he shall confirm a covenant with many
for one captivity. And in the middle of the captivity,
he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation (to himself 2nd Thess 2:4)
to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations
he shall make it (the whole world Rev 6:8) desolate,
even until the consummation (of time)
and that determined (fire) shall be poured upon the desolator (Revelation 20:9)

 

The anti-Christ has 70 years, not just 7.

After 35 years I believe he will come forward as Satan in the flesh
wanting the world to worship him openly and accept what he has to offer.
 

 

Taking the all the above into account,
the total tribulation is therefore 4,900 years worth of captivity,
including the death and resurrection of Christ as a bad time,
indeed at that time Jerusalem was in captivity by the Romans,
and afterwards still a prophesied thousands of years to go.

 

Interesting, creative thinking for sure, but not persuasive  lacking support of historical manuscripts, as well as support from the multitude of various translations. Can you find one, outside of a commentary to agree with your proposal?

Edited May 15 by BlindSeeker
spelling error

[AdHoc]

On 5/5/2024 at 5:18 AM, BlindSeeker said:

But I do appreciate you posting and the structuring of your thoughts, many I once shared, and I do appreciate the noting of "strengthens THE Covenant" over the word spinning of calling it a peace treaty. But IMHO it is speaking of Jesus Christ confirming the covenant of God with His people via His own resurrection which fulfilled the prophetic purpose of the Law, cause it to die having be so fulfilled. Yet, as I posted above, the Jews continuing in their sacrifices rejecting Christ, though one was lawful, was now an "overspreading of abominations, whereby He (God) made it (the Temple) desolate, even unto the consummation (the end)."

Therefore, I do not believe the  temple will ever be rebuilt...

I was away for the weekend and the thread has left me behind. You answered me with time, effort and thought behind it. Thank you. I will just comment on the above segment. The rest is not in dispute. You mentioned the heptadic structure of scripture to which I agree. I do not find any evidence for a seven-year Great Tribulation, so trying to find support for it seems vain. I think that the Christians who believe that number got their doctrine from the abundance of fiction that we, and Hollywood have fed us.

What astounds me is the number of our brethren who like to calculate what God has purposefully hidden from us. And not only do thy like to calculate, they base it on prophecies made to Israel. We are not bound by those prophets. Israel are accused by our Lord for not knowing the time of their visitation. Not so the Church. The Lord plainly said that we do not know the hour of His coming. Calculations by Christians are not in any way illegal. We are to study equally Israel's history (1st Cor.10:1-11), but not for dates. We are to study their case for our moral walk. We are to appreciate the times we live in by the moral condition of men (the days of Noah and Lot), and the moral condition of the Church (2nd Thess.2 and the Churches of Revelation).

My appreciation of your section which I quoted above is that Daniel was a prophet to Israel. The prophecies are directed quite clearly at "THY People". Chapters 2 to 7 are directed at GENTILE Kings and Kingdoms - not the Church. While it might be interesting, and informative for other things, Daniel's prophecies concern Israel. In Matthew 24:1-31, even the most superficial student must discover that from the Temple, through Jerusalem, Judea, the Sabbath and ending with Christ breaking clouds over Jerusalem, and commissioning His angels to collect those scattered to the "four winds" is all Jewish. Daniel's prophecy is for those who "see" the Abomination of Desolation". Thus, Istanbul, London and New York are exempt. So also are the many prophecies that our Lord fulfilled. They are not the goal of Daniel's inspiration. The goal is clearly said. "YOUR People" and "YOUR City".

We must agree to disagree on the "Prince". The grammar is not difficult. "Messiah" is a Prince. He is cut off after 69 sevens. Then another "Prince" is introduced and identified. He is a Prince of the people who destroyed the sanctuary and the city, but "shall come" - that is, he is future to the destruction of the sanctuary. What is decisive is "THE Covenant". Much has been written about the Beast and Covenants with Israel. But the grammar addresses  "A" Covenant which contains the daily oblation. It is also broken by the abolition of the daily oblation. And for THE Covenant of Sinai to be in effect, a Temple must stand. This agrees with the ONE "sign" that is given to the Church - THE LEAVES of the Fig Tree. The Fig Tree is not the goal of the parable - but it's leaves. The leaves of a Tree are its covering, or garment. And a garment is "WORKS" (Rev.19:7-8). Adam and Eve made garments of the knowledge of "good and evil" - which Romans 7 says is the Law.

If you do a search for the Laws that can only be completed where "God chose to put His Name" you will find that it is His "House" - the Temple. The Beast, in order to sit in the Holy Place also needs the Temple.

I enjoyed the swap of ideas. Go well.

[BlindSeeker]

On 5/9/2024 at 5:58 PM, AdHoc said:

I was away for the weekend and the thread has left me behind. You answered me with time, effort and thought behind it. Thank you.

I too was away this weekend, and as we all know life's obligations can often greatly restrict one's engagement with others. That said, my life is about to become a bit more restrictive for me as this week I began 6 weeks of radiation treatments, twice a day, 5 days a week. What I've been told is it will be a taxation for sure physically and take one to twice as long to feel normal again. But all His mercies are new every morning, and they all endure forever. So, everyone’s patience is greatly welcomed.
That said, I truly appreciate the grace of your discourse. It's refreshing.

 

On 5/9/2024 at 5:58 PM, AdHoc said:

What astounds me is the number of our brethren who like to calculate what God has purposefully hidden from us. And not only do thy like to calculate, they base it on prophecies made to Israel. We are not bound by those prophets. Israel are accused by our Lord for not knowing the time of their visitation. Not so the Church. The Lord plainly said that we do not know the hour of His coming. Calculations by Christians are not in any way illegal. We are to study equally Israel's history (1st Cor.10:1-11), but not for dates. We are to study their case for our moral walk. We are to appreciate the times we live in by the moral condition of men (the days of Noah and Lot), and the moral condition of the Church (2nd Thess.2 and the Churches of Revelation).

True, the Jews in many of their national prophecies had a clearer or more specific enumeration of time, by they too did not know the hour or the day of their fulfilment.  

Therefore, I still think IF we are truly a "people called by His name," and truly living temples sanctified by water and blood for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God which was given to guide us into all truth, and to empower us in the doing and delighting in His will,  ever quickening us so that we might come to the fullness of the measure and stature of Christ, THEN surely we all ought to be endeavoring to walking more and more in the light as Jesus Christ so walked. 

For if we are truly children of the Light and have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches, then we too should be discerners of the time in which we are living, even though we too might not know the day or the hour of His return. (I Thess. 5:3-9)

I personally believe that Peter knew the Lord wasn't returning till after 2000 years, with his reminding us, the church, that a day with the Lord was as a thousand years. (2 Peter 3:1-9, Hosea 6:1-3)
 

On 5/9/2024 at 5:58 PM, AdHoc said:

We must agree to disagree on the "Prince". The grammar is not difficult. "Messiah" is a Prince. He is cut off after 69 sevens. Then another "Prince" is introduced and identified. He is a Prince of the people who destroyed the sanctuary and the city, but "shall come" - that is, he is future to the destruction of the sanctuary. What is decisive is "THE Covenant". Much has been written about the Beast and Covenants with Israel. But the grammar addresses  "A" Covenant which contains the daily oblation....

I personally can never “agree to disagree,” since believers are supposed to have the same Spirit leading us into all truth. I can, however, graciously acknowledge when a disagreement does exist. Yet when it does, at best one might be right while the other must be wrong. Yet even that is rare since we all know in part and thus speak in part. Such is why charity compels the saints to graciously reason together the things the Spirit is speaking to God's people. 

But while scripture does state "after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off," it is after the prior verse told us that "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the [coming of] Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks," or after 7+62, or 69 weeks. So, does Messiah's coming and being cut off happen in an extremely brief time period? For remember, the prophetic increment of time-measurement given is a “week,” and not days. 

So, are we really to understand that 62 weeks after the wall was completed [+7 weeks, 69 total], when Messiah comes, that He is also cut off in between the consecutive weeks? After 69, yet before 70? How can that be?

Or might it be that "after 62 weeks" [being 69 in total], yet still prior to the completion of the 70th week [that obviously began right after the 69th], that Messiah fulfilled the Covenant by His answering the prophetic action of the Ceremonial Law via His death, and also confirmed He has the power to raise God's people from the dead (according to the covenant) via His own resurrection, as well as by many other graves being opened afterwards (Matt. 27:52,53), and thereby He brought an abrupt end (or death) to the law, the old covenant and established the new? (Romans 7:4-6, Hebrews 8:13-9:1) 

Consequently then, because of the Jews rejection of the Lamb which God provided (Genesis 22:8), and their continuing in that which was once lawful but now dead, they were now filling up their cup of iniquity daily with their "crucifying Christ afresh." Therefore, the sacrifices they were now offering to justify themselves by keeping a dead law in eyes of God, their actions were in truth "an overspreading of abominations." Wherefore He fulfilled His own prophecy upon them and destroyed the temple, being "made desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined was poured upon the desolate" via the Titus, son of Vespasian, who was indeed a Roman prince…

So, while I  am obliged to acknowledge that we do disagree, it will never sit well with me that one of us must be wrong, if not both of us. May God lead us into His truth…
 

On 5/9/2024 at 5:58 PM, AdHoc said:

If you do a search for the Laws that can only be completed where "God chose to put His Name" you will find that it is His "House" - the Temple. The Beast, in order to sit in the Holy Place also needs the Temple.

Permit me to simply share what Adam Clarke succinctly stated – 

“After the death of Christ the temple of Jerusalem is never called by the apostles the temple of God; and if at any time they make mention of the house or temple of God, they mean the Church in general, or every particular believer. Whoever will consult (*verses below) will want no examples to prove that, under the Gospel dispensation, the temple of God is the Church of Christ; and the man of sin sitting implies this ruling and presiding there; and sitting there as God implies his claiming Divine authority in things spiritual as well as temporal; and showing himself that he is God, implies his doing it with ostentation.”  

1st Corinthians 3:16 – Know you not that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 

2nd Corinthians 6:16 – And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? for you are the temple of the living God; as God has said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 

1st Timothy 3:15 – But if I tarry long, that you may know how you ought to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 

Revelation 3:12 – Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him My new name. 

 

On 5/9/2024 at 5:58 PM, AdHoc said:

I enjoyed the swap of ideas. Go well.

Likewise. Stay blessable.

[AdHoc]

17 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

But while scripture does state "after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off," it is after the prior verse told us that "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the [coming of] Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks," or after 7+62, or 69 weeks. So, does Messiah's coming and being cut off happen in an extremely brief time period? For remember, the prophetic increment of time-measurement given is a “week,” and not days. 

The prophecy, like elsewhere for Israel's dealings, is a day for a year. All that had to happen was that within the same year Messiah's coming and Messiah's being cut off must happen in the 69th seven. But it was much more precise than that. I do believe that they happened within four days of each other. Messiah "comes" on a donkey (all gospels). He is named "King" by all the people in three gospels and that His "kingdom" had come in Mark. Four days later he was cut off. Sir Robert Anderson made an acceptably scholarly calculation and has the Messiah "coming" on the last day of the 69th seven. The word "after" means four days.

What ever calculation one uses for the 70th week, it must be after a gap. The other "Prince" 'who SHALL come" must come after Rome destroyed the city and sanctuary because he is identified by "the people who destroyed ... ". He could not be identified as a Roman if he came BEFORE the Romans set this ID in 70 AD. That is also why the object of the prophecy is so important - six things FOR DANIEL'S PEOPLE. Not six things for Messiah to fulfill.

18 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

Permit me to simply share what Adam Clarke succinctly stated – 

That may be, and I'm sure you're correct, but I quoted Deuteronomy 12:5, 11, 21 etc. But the point was that without a Temple the Law cannot be fulfilled.

I get your point though. If the Beast sits in a Temple it will have to be future. It is called "Temple of God" twice. It is to be measured and trampled underfoot. It is in that City where the Lord was crucified. This can only be a literal Temple in Jerusalem.

I am not dismayed when men differ in exposition. The rebirth produces "babes". Ephesians 4 admits keeping a unity 'TILL we come to THE unity of THE FAITH" (what we believe). This implies a length of time till all come to believe the same thing. "Babes" must grow and the Bible commends Apollos even though his doctrine delayed the Holy Spirit in Ephesus. Having the same standard of THE faith is unlikely.

[Marilyn C]

Israel`s Temple in Jerusalem.

[BlindSeeker]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The word "after" means four days.

Can you substantiate this, because I can't?

[BlindSeeker]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Israel`s Temple in Jerusalem.

Ok, but it is not the biblical temple of God, nor do I believe God Himself would compel Paul to so reference it or any other structure as such.

Dan 9:27 - And He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations He shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Everywhere a temple is mentioned in scripture, its purpose is clarified. Scripture is given under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, for He is the Author. 

Ezr 5:14 - And the vessels also of gold and silver of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar took out of the temple that was in Jerusalem, and brought them into the temple of Babylon...

Mt 26:61  - And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
John 2:21 - But He spake of the temple of His body.

Acts 19:27  - ...the temple of the great goddess Diana

1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
 1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
 2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 

The last temple defined as a "Temple of God" is that of the individual bodies of men, and that by the Apostle Paul.  Therefore, when Paul speaks of the "man of sin," that "son of perdition" who shall "sit in the temple of God," it was historically understood by the protestant fathers and some earlier church fathers to be the position of the papacy, a false apostle like Judas, but one who claims to the incarnate representation of God. 

This is clearly seen in the letter to King James by the translators - 

"...And this their contentment doth not diminish or decay, but every day increaseth and taketh strength, when they observe, that the zeal of Your Majesty toward the house of God doth not slack or go backward, but is more and more kindled, manifesting itself abroad in the farthest parts of Christendom, by writing in defense of the Truth, (which hath given such a blow unto that man of sin, as will not be healed)..."

Furthermore, it can be seen historically how both Constantine’s alleged conversion to Christianity and the decline and eventual fall of Rome gave way to the Rise of Roman Catholicism and the papacy.

For these, and many other reasons, it becomes evident why those Christians, who were mercilessly persecuted for centuries for clinging to their faith in Christ Jesus, refused to acknowledge as legitimate the usurped authority of Catholicism and the Papacy. Those early believers who were mercilessly persecuted commonly considered Catholicism to be a profane institution, that “great apostasy,” and wholeheartedly viewed the position of the papacy as “that man of sin [which would] be revealed, the son of perdition.”

Again, and not trying to be redundant, in this light it should be easy to see why it would be wisdom for Paul to be elusive and not to write in his Epistle to the Thessalonians that Rome was going to have to fall to make way for this great apostasy and the son of perdition. Furthermore, the phrase “son of perdition” is only used twice in scripture, once by Jesus in reference to Judas who ended up being a false apostle, and here again used by Paul in reference I believe to the position of the papacy, which Catholicism is said to be overseen by a continuation of apostles now referred to as popes. But again, historically, in the eyes of true Protestants the popes have all been false apostles and betrayers of truth of the gospel just as surely as Judas was.

Permit me as well to submit a plausible reason for Paul's brevity in writing to the Thessalonians “Remember you not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?” For Paul would have easily been able to preach to the brethren at Thessalonica that after “the wrath to come” of God judging the Jews, that Rome too, like the three empires before it, would eventually fall. This is easy to see both in the depiction of Rome in Nebuchadnezzar’s vision of “a great image” that represented these four great empires and Daniel’s vision of the “four great beasts which came up from the sea, diverse one from another.”

Remember as well, that Paul and Silas were accused, beaten, and thrown in jail in Philippi for teaching customs which are not lawful to receive, neither to observe for the Romans. Then shortly afterwards, Paul and Silas go to Thessalonica, only to have to flee because a strong accusation was asserted that “Jason and those he had received [Paul and Silas], were doing things that were contrary to the decrees of Caesar, and saying that there is another king, one Jesus.” These charges asserted treason and seditious activity, crimes which carried the penalty of death in Rome, which is an excellent reason for not writing it in his epistle to them.

Also, we can see through scripture how it is evident Paul preached on the “wrath to come,” which agrees with Jesus’ prophecy concerning Jerusalem and Israel which the other apostles would have shared with him. Therefore, not only could Paul have taught the Thessalonians about the fall of Rome from scripture, he must likely did with confidence via a revelation the Holy Spirit revealed to him concerning the events leading to the rise of the apostacy and man of sin.

Furthermore, Paul is seen in Acts 13 quoting Habakkuk while in Antioch earlier before his coming to Thessalonica to the Jews, confirming to them the destruction that was coming to Jerusalem.

Habakkuk 1:5 – Behold you among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously: for I will work a work in your days, which you will not believe, though it be told you. 6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwelling places that are not theirs. 7 They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves.

Acts 13:16 – Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and you that fear God, give audience… 40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41 Behold, you despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which you shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

In quoting Habakkuk, Paul rebukes the Jews for being “despisers” of God’s word which was now being revealed to them through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Therefore, he warns them that if they did not repent, they too were going to perish just as those Jews did when the Chaldeans first destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. Yet we know from history that the coming destruction of which Paul was warning them was not going to be by the Chaldeans this time: rather Rome was going to be the instrument of God’s wrath whereby once more Zion was going to “be plowed as a field” and Jerusalem again destined to “become heaps.” However, what is important is that there are scriptures in Daniel which speak of this happening again to Jerusalem whereby Paul could and would have taught all this to the Thessalonians. 

 

[AdHoc]

13 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

Can you substantiate this, because I can't?

Mea Culpa. What was I thinking? That is inexcusable. I think I started a thought, finished another and forgot to get back to it.