Branch Discussion About Sin Entering Through Adam

[Charlie744]

20 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Thank you for your questions and look forward to a good discussion. 

We both read the same scriptures in Genesis and we must have common grounds.I advance a little bit but I will scale back to consider everything from the beginning. In Genesis 3: we found out that Adam and Eve had lived without the knowledge of good and evil. It is clear that they did not have the knowledge of good and evil before they ate from the forbidden fruit only after they ate from the forbidden fruit. For this reason God did not held them accountable for their actions to eat from the fruit of the tree, as He never said to them that they have sin against Him.. He did not even say to them that they have disobeyed Him. A lot of people tend to judge Adam that he disobeyed God and disobedience towards God is a sin and for that reason they say Adam sin. By looking ahead of how God judge sin under the Law with the commandments not just the ten. When they do that they fail in their judgment because they did not consider the state of mind of Adam and Eve to begin with because at that time they did not have the knowledge of good and evil or right or wrong, the state of their mind but God had consider that and He did not count their action as a disobedience or a disobedience to sin or as they sinning against him. This is why He pronounced the effects of their actions and one of them was that now that they have the knowledge of good and evil they can not longer remain in the Garden and they have to leave the Garden. From that time on man can never return to live in the Garden because he has and will always have the knowledge of good and evil. In the Garden Adam and Eve were immune to sin because they did not have the knowledge of good or evil. This is why God never said to Adam and Eve that they sin against him. God continued to have the same relationship with them out of the Garden exactly as the relationship he had with them in the Garden which is telling us that God did not consider them as sinners. He treat them as his own people and they worship him as their God and He accepted their worship and bless them. The Devil had nothing to do with them and God protected them from any accidents. He kept them alive. The first time God said the word sin it was with Cain after he kill his brother and at that time He seperated himself from Cain because of his sin. Cain said to God that I have to live away from your presence seperated from you. 

Ok, I think I’ve got it. I don’t believe I have thought about this before… in this way.

So, if I understand the issue:

1) God told Adam not to eat of the tree of good and evil, FOR WHEN YOU DO, YOU WILL SURELY DIE.

   a) Does this mean the act of eating the fruit ITSELF is a sin because it is a “disobedience of God’s command”? 
 

   b) Or, does this mean that if Adam CHOOSES to eat of the tree it will bring in the knowledge of good and evil? Meaning, IF THIS, THEN THAT?

Is the CHOICE an act of direct disobedience or is it simply an act to choose to bring in the knowledge of good and evil?

2) If the eating of the apple IS a ‘SIN,’ then Adam was the first sinner and he would bring the sin into the world (outside of the Garden).

3) If it is the latter - it was a CHOICE where he would have to suffer the consequences, then it may not be a “sin” but he would still be responsible for bringing the ability for sin to enter into the world. 
 

4) So, the tree of good and evil is not of itself “sin”, but by choosing to access this knowledge (bringing the ability to have both good and evil into existence) Adam brought the possibility of sin into the world. 
 

5) If God only told Adam that there WAS A TREE OF GOOD AND EVIL IN THE MIDST IF THE GARDEN, and he decided to eat the apple, was that sin? God did not tell Adam it was a sin to eat of it, but that he would die.

I hope I am at least presenting this issue appropriately. 
 

I look forward to hearing all the thoughts from everyone. 

 

 

[Michael37]

Romans 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Paul is not wrong when he writes this.

The Worthy Statement Of Faith concludes with this:

We believe that the 66 books of the Canon, from Genesis to Revelation are the exhaustive, inerrant and inspired word of God.

Problems arise when comparisons are made between Scriptures that do not comport to the same context, that is, they are not discussing the same subject.

Rom 5:16  And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Paul is speaking of Adam when he refers to "one that sinned", and is not wrong to do so.

[Your closest friendnt]

On 4/24/2024 at 3:42 PM, Charlie744 said:

Ok, I think I’ve got it. I don’t believe I have thought about this before… in this way.

So, if I understand the issue:

1) God told Adam not to eat of the tree of good and evil, FOR WHEN YOU DO, YOU WILL SURELY DIE.

   a) Does this mean the act of eating the fruit ITSELF is a sin because it is a “disobedience of God’s command”? 
 

   b) Or, does this mean that if Adam CHOOSES to eat of the tree it will bring in the knowledge of good and evil? Meaning, IF THIS, THEN THAT?

Is the CHOICE an act of direct disobedience or is it simply an act to choose to bring in the knowledge of good and evil?

2) If the eating of the apple IS a ‘SIN,’ then Adam was the first sinner and he would bring the sin into the world (outside of the Garden).

3) If it is the latter - it was a CHOICE where he would have to suffer the consequences, then it may not be a “sin” but he would still be responsible for bringing the ability for sin to enter into the world. 
 

4) So, the tree of good and evil is not of itself “sin”, but by choosing to access this knowledge (bringing the ability to have both good and evil into existence) Adam brought the possibility of sin into the world. 
 

5) If God only told Adam that there WAS A TREE OF GOOD AND EVIL IN THE MIDST IF THE GARDEN, and he decided to eat the apple, was that sin? God did not tell Adam it was a sin to eat of it, but that he would die.

I hope I am at least presenting this issue appropriately. 
 

I look forward to hearing all the thoughts from everyone. 

 

 

Hello @Charlie744  I try to answer your question as It is in Genesis 3. From scripture. As a result they were different people. A big departure from the people they were before, there was a fantamendal change, if I can use this word, in the absence of another word that could be more appropriate. which I do not know. 

The answer to your question is in Genesis. God said in a few places in Genesis 3 high lighted and bolded that it is because you ate from the fruit of the tree that I commanded not to eat from ( word for word from Genesis 3. Is there anything else in Genesis 3 that I have missed. Please let me know. 

11 when God said to Adam, 

¹¹ And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?” 

3:3 in the answer of Eve to the Serpent 3. but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

In verse 11 God said to Adam: 

10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”11 And he said,

“Who told you that you were naked? 

Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from. 

10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”

11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
    

3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;......

Edited April 29, 2024 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

@Charlie744 Hello and greetings to you. This is what we have in Genesis 3:6-7 NIV and what happened to them as soon as they ate the fruit 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings forthemselves.  And in verse 11, God said to Adam “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?” One of the results of eating from the fruit of that tree was that Adam realized that He was naked, because when Adam said to God that I heard you walking towards me and I hid because I was naked. Imediatly God said: (pointing to the result from eating from the fruit) you have eaten from the fruit I told you not to eat. 

 2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

² The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, ³ but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

Edited April 29, 2024 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

On 4/24/2024 at 3:42 PM, Charlie744 said:

Ok, I think I’ve got it. I don’t believe I have thought about this before… in this way.

So, if I understand the issue:

1) God told Adam not to eat of the tree of good and evil, FOR WHEN YOU DO, YOU WILL SURELY DIE.

   a) Does this mean the act of eating the fruit ITSELF is a sin because it is a “disobedience of God’s command”? 
 

   b) Or, does this mean that if Adam CHOOSES to eat of the tree it will bring in the knowledge of good and evil? Meaning, IF THIS, THEN THAT?

Is the CHOICE an act of direct disobedience or is it simply an act to choose to bring in the knowledge of good and evil?

2) If the eating of the apple IS a ‘SIN,’ then Adam was the first sinner and he would bring the sin into the world (outside of the Garden). 

3) If it is the latter - it was a CHOICE where he would have to suffer the consequences, then it may not be a “sin” but he would still be responsible for bringing the ability for sin to enter into the world. 
 

4) So, the tree of good and evil is not of itself “sin”, but by choosing to access this knowledge (bringing the ability to have both good and evil into existence) Adam brought the possibility of sin into the world. 
 

5) If God only told Adam that there WAS A TREE OF GOOD AND EVIL IN THE MIDST IF THE GARDEN, and he decided to eat the apple, was that sin? God did not tell Adam it was a sin to eat of it, but that he would die.

I hope I am at least presenting this issue appropriately. 
 

I look forward to hearing all the thoughts from everyone. 

 

 

Hello @Charlie744 Regarding your question number 1, which reads as follows. 1) God told Adam not to eat of the tree of good and evil, FOR WHEN YOU DO, YOU WILL SURELY DIE. This is what God said before Adam ate from the forbidden fruit. The moment Adam ate from the fruit of that the forbidden tree he was in the SURELY DIE mode. And we learn that he also gained the knowledge of good and evil.

We are also told that Adam before he ate from the forbidden fruit he was not in the tree of life and he was not in the tree of the SURELY die mode. Only when Adam eats from the forbidden fruit he will be in that tree and in the surely die mode. At the moment when he will die the Arhon of that tree can have him. Adam continued to live  in his knew situation in the surely die mode and his relationship with God continued while he was out of the Garden in the same way as when he was in the Garden. Adam (and his children Cain and Abel) were not seperated from God while they lived. God fellowship with them as they were in the SURELY DIE mode and not in the tree of life. They were not his people because they were in the SURELY DIE mode but God had an unhindered relationship with them in a similar way as when Adam was in the Garden. The children of Adam were born in the same mode Adam was, in the surely die mode. 

Neither arhon whether the Arhon of the tree of life or the Arhon of the tree of death had a claim on Adam when Adam was was living in the Garden which was his inheritance. God made man and He put him in the Garden. When Adam ate from the forbidden fruit he was led to his new Inheritance out of the Garden. And he had to live out of the Garden in the SURELY DIE MODE. The Arhon of the forbidden tree he had a claim on Adam in the Surely die mode only.  From the facts in Genesis God's fellowship with Adam and Eve and later included his children was continued out of the Garden in the same way as it was in the Garden. I included his children because they also were in the surely die mode because they were the fruit of the tree of Adam who was in the surely die mode. The tree of Adam bore fruits (from Adam and Eve) and at the appointed time they  became trees of their own. Abel died childless, and without a wife. And he was the first man to die and he died in the surely die mode. Abel got seperated from God at the time of his death according to scriptures. Cain because of his Sin of killing his brother got seperated from God while yet he lived. The first one who at first was in the fellowship with God and got seperated from God because of his sin and continued his life  away from God's fellowship ( and the same was for his children and that because of their father's sin they were born and lived and died seperated from God, Having never experienced to be in the fellowship of God. Unlike their father Cain who once began his life in the fellowship of God but they were born to him when he was not in the fellowship with God anymore because of his sin. 

Adam had Shem who was born and remaine in the fellowship with God and he also died in the Surely die mode. They had fellowship with God while they still lived only because they were still in the surely die mode. At the time of their death God did not contest with the Serpent or his agents for the soul of Abel and everyone else who was not seperated from him and died while they were in an unhindered relationship with him because they were in the surely die mode in the Arhon of the tree of the forbidden fruit in the surely die mode. Cain and anyone else from the other children of Adam who because of their sin they God seperated from God together with their children they lived their lives seperated from God they did not have to wait till their death to be separated from God because they were seperated while they still lived. Till Abraham when a change came in Abraham who was the Patriarch of God's people while they lived and after their death. God was their God after their death and they were his people in life and in death. Adam and Abel and Shem and all the other righteous people who died before they were in the surely die mode. God removed the surely die mode from Abraham and his children and while they continue to die they die as his people. God was still their God after their death. They didn't gathered to him at death but they were still his people and he was still their God as they were alive to him before and after they died and were gathered to Abraham the Patriarch of the people of God through Issac and Jacob and all his people the Israelites till the time of Jesus Christ when everything change. And the people of God in Jesus Christ the people with the Spirit of Jesus Christ in the eternal life of Jesus Christ because when they die they die while they are in the eternal life of God in Jesus Christ and are gathered to Jesus Christ at the time of their death to where he is, they are  to be together with him and the Heavenly Father.

 

Edited May 8, 2024 by Your closest friendnt