What really does the New Testament reveal in terms of “tribulation and great tribulation”

[Charlie744]

23 minutes ago, tatwo said:

Honestly Charlie…in my mind this was all a given…my entire first post spelled this out…or so I thought? The second post was to have brought a cross section of the current tribulation upon the earth today…specifically in the U.S. in an effort to illuminate how the plight of humanity has increasingly suffered under the growing oppression of the…dragon.

Charlie…I say this with the utmost respect for the work you are doing in the Kingdom of God brother…none the less…I would be remiss if do not mention it.  It seems to me that you may be struggling with the identity of the “Body of Christ”…if…it is only in reference to the end of the age and all subsequent tribulation.

This is the point of my initiating this forum/discussion…I believe that many/most are in this place.

Tatwo...:)

Sorry if my comment was already covered by your earlier post… I was attempting to release my thought process only… 

 

Regarding the “body of Christ” comment, I am going to have to ask if you might expand on that … I am missing the boat here. 

[Charlie744]

25 minutes ago, tatwo said:

Twice actually…three if you want to count “they which came out of great tribulation.”  The first one is the prophetic warning issued by the Lord Yahshua Christ as “sign” of the end of the age. Then He warns again a few decades later of “great tribulation” in reference to those in Thyatira who are committing adultery with Jezebel…who is teaching in the church.

This is the same voice…same words…same Lord Yahshua Christ speaking both of these prophetic warnings…labeling them both as “great tribulation”…just saying.

There is so much here…I must leave it there for now.

Yes I agree…

This is a potent paragraph and a strong indictment against much of organized religion…people around here don’t like that kind of “speak”…however you will get only affirmation from me Charlie. Not that I enjoy the actual meaning or the playing out of what you say…no I abhor the prophetic picture it conveys…I do however agree that this will be how this plays out…or similar.

“(but that is another topic)” not necessarily Charlie…parts of it yes…however not altogether. You speak of a separation between “church” and “believers”…more than once in your post. Now you further clarify…in your words…if they are not your words correct me…the RCC and most other Christian denominations do not follow the apostles doctrine…am I hearing you correctly Charlie?

You see…it is ones identity…spiritually…that determines the “fruit” of any tribulation…small and great…upon the souls of men. For the vast multitude it is producing death…ending in an eternal separation from God…for the few however…it produces life eternal in Christ. Both…are experiencing even today…these separate spiritual realities in their lives…the former have no idea what has come upon them.

Tatwo...:)

Well, to be candid, I do not believe that any church of today speaks the same Gospel as … say Paul.

Not to hang that statement on just two examples, but two quickly come to mind:

1) many contend the 10 commandments have been nailed to the cross,

2) many contend the Sabbath should not / does not have to be kept / honored on the 7th Day- our Saturday. 

The largest denomination is clearly the RCC with ~ 1.4 billion followers. They have corrupted the Word of God is so many ways… it is heartbreaking to think their followers are at risk of not seeing the Kingdom of God.

I hope this is relevant to your response… look forward to your responses. 
 

 

[Charlie744]

29 minutes ago, tatwo said:

Will they hear it Charlie? If they do hear it…how so? What will they actually “hear?"

Who is “they” in that paragraph? I see the Christians and I see the Jews…where are the “believers” at in this picture Charlie?

For the mature sons of God…the great tribulation allows them to perfect their testimony of the Lord Yahshua Christ in the earth…they are long past the point of the cross friend…those who are at the cross...at that point in their spirituality…they are infants, children, carnal and immature…something Paul says we are not to be.

Think about it for a moment...who is it that carries out the commands or perhaps better said...the judgments of the Lord in the earth unto the end of the age up unto His appearing?

Thank you Charlie...

Tatwo...:)

Unfortunately, I can not answer this response at this time but I certainly will later this evening.., another interesting set of thoughts / questions from you! Thanks, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, tatwo said:

Will they hear it Charlie? If they do hear it…how so? What will they actually “hear?"

 

As you are aware, the 70 weeks of years prophecy found in Daniel 9 matches exactly with the start and ending of the 4th and final Great Jubilee Cycle (certainly, no coincidence). Both began in 457 BC and would last exactly 490 years.

The “restoration” of Jerusalem, the Temple, the walls and streets were all to be completed after the Babylonian destruction in the first 49 years (first 7 weeks) by the Jews (all things physical). Then there was no mention of the elements that were to be completed DURING the second section or the following 62 weeks, or 434 literal years. But God did tell Daniel the last 7 years  (last week of the 70) the Messiah would arrive. It was on the first day of the 70th week. However, He was crucified by His people exactly 3.5 years of the last week of the prophecy. Meaning, the counting of the 4th Great Jubilee cycle stopped- leaving it at exactly 486.5 years completed of the 490 years. 
 

Thus, His people MUST complete the 490 years and the Lord will accomplish this by opening their eyes (end time Damascus experience) and they will, as Paul, go out into the world preaching the Word of God AND the Testimony of Jesus. So, I believe God is tying all of these things together at the end times: the completion of the 4th Great Jubilee Cycle, the ending of the time of the Gentiles, and opening the eyes of His people to preach the Word as it was done by Paul - again, today’s churches have been preaching a different Gospel. 
 

What will they hear? I believe there are enough folks within this forum who are so much more qualified to answer this than I am. I believe God will give them the ability to show just how the NT lines up with the OT - a seamless presentation of our Messiah!
 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, tatwo said:

 

Who is “they” in that paragraph? I see the Christians and I see the Jews…where are the “believers” at in this picture Charlie?

 

 

I believe I left something out in that response. Regarding those that are not Christian, I believe they will be shocked to see and learn that the Jews are now preaching Jesus as their Lord and Savior. This would literally shake the world and will bring so many people to Christ. 
 

2 hours ago, tatwo said:

 

For the mature sons of God…the great tribulation allows them to perfect their testimony of the Lord Yahshua Christ in the earth…they are long past the point of the cross friend…those who are at the cross...at that point in their spirituality…they are infants, children, carnal and immature…something Paul says we are not to be.

Think about it for a moment...who is it that carries out the commands or perhaps better said...the judgments of the Lord in the earth unto the end of the age up unto His appearing?

Thank you Charlie...

Tatwo...:)

I believe these 3.5 years ARE the Great Tribulation period. The war is not a physical war, although there is no time in man’s history that wasn’t without war, but this will turn the world on its head… 

The Christian folks, especially the RCC will be faced with hearing the Jews preach a different Gospel than what they have been teaching, their power base WIL be challenged… now, all people’s will have to who to follow .. this will be the time when brother goes against brother, father against son, etc., and this will certainly be found at the nation levels as well… There will be tremendous hate, anger, etc., 

[farouk]

John 16.33 is about the general principle of tribulation, through which all believers go, but we can know that the Lord Jesus has overcome the world.

Matthew 24.21 is about a unique future event.

[farouk]

@Charlie744 Thanks for the 'like'; it's really self-evident from Scripture, I think.

[Charlie744]

16 hours ago, farouk said:

John 16.33 is about the general principle of tribulation, through which all believers go, but we can know that the Lord Jesus has overcome the world.

Matthew 24.21 is about a unique future event.

Oh, I forgot to mention the connection of the Jews preaching the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus during the last 3.5 years (their end time Damascus experience when Jesus will open their eyes) with the verse in Matthew. In Matthew 24:14, Jesus predicts the Gospel of the kingdom of God will be preached to all the world… 

[Charlie744]

16 hours ago, farouk said:

John 16.33 is about the general principle of tribulation, through which all believers go, but we can know that the Lord Jesus has overcome the world.

Matthew 24.21 is about a unique future event.

Thanks for the references! Matthew 24 is such an interesting and important series of verses that have been discussed since the time of the Messiah. They are indeed quite difficult to interpret. 
 

Almost all commentators agree they speak of the end times, and that may just be the case, but during my study of Daniel, I think they might speak to the time of the Messiah- His first coming. 

Here are the thoughts behind this:

1) Probably the most important term to discuss is the AOD, or the Abomination that causes desolation. This is always attributed to an end time event surrounding a “mythical anti-Christ figure.” 
 

This term is first mentioned in Daniel and I believe it refers to one specific event in the history of mankind- the most horrific and incomprehensible evil transgression that could be committed against our God- the Jews rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah. 

This “abomination” is the basis for God to turn away from His people for the next 2000 years (time of the Gentiles). This transgression surpassed their earlier disobedience and idolatry that resulted in their complete destruction of Jerusalem and their 70 year captivity in Babylon. This transgression (abomination), would now cause God to become completely “desolate” to His people. And this is exactly what has taken place since 70 AD.

So, how does this tie into Matthew? It ties into Matthew, Mark and Luke. 
 

In Matthew, Jesus references Daniel and says, “when you see the AOD STANDING in the holy place…

In Mark, Jesus references Daniel and says. “When you see the AOD standing where it ought not be…

In Luke, Jesus does not use the word “abomination” nor does he mention the book of Daniel, but he does refer to the time of the coming “desolation.”

All three are speaking of the same event and time in history. 
 

In Matthew, it is Jesus (abomination of the cross) who will be found STANDING in the holy place. Matthew speaks to the Jews and speaks about Jesus as a King, their Messiah. It is EXPECTED to find Him STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE- that is where Kings belong. 
 

In Mark, it is Jesus (abomination of the cross) who will found STANDING WHERE HE OUGHT NOT BE. Mark speaks about Jesus, not as a king, but as a servant. Everything in Mark speaks of Jesus as helping, serving, healing His people. Thus, Mark is telling us this same “AOD” should not be found standing in the holy place- SERVANTS DO NOT BELONG IN THE HOLY PLACE. 

But in Luke, there is a departure (seemingly) from the way this event (AOD) is presented. Here, Luke focuses on Jerusalem and the word “desolate.” Now, as a result of the AOD (Cross), Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies, THEN, desolation is near (not an end time event either). This would take place in 70 AD, and as a result of the Jews rejecting and crucifying their Messiah. Luke does not speak of Jesus as a king or a servant, but as a MAN. Consequently, no MAN could be found to “cause” complete desolation between God and His people. No MAN could be found to “cause” a complete destruction of Jerusalem and His people. Thus, this MAN is being mentioned as a time marker revealing the beginning of the time when God would cause a complete desolation between Him and His people (70 AD). 
 

That is how I found these verses to fit with the new interpretations of Daniel. 
 

Finally, a very different interpretation of Matthew 24:22, which is also tied to the Daniel prophecies might be considered:

 

24:22… Unless those days be shortened, no flesh would be saved…. 
 

Once again, all commentators treat this as an end time event when God will have to intervene in the destruction on earth otherwise everyone would perish. But I believe this is also speaking about the Messiah (His first coming). As mentioned, Jesus arrived on the first day of the 70th week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. The first 69 weeks are completed and Jerusalem, His people, all the Levitical ceremonies and practices have been reinstated, and the Sabbatical cycles are also being honored. This is the purpose of the 70 weeks of years prophecy- The things (physical and spiritual) that MUST be restored after the Babylonian destruction. 
 

Everything was fully restored by the end of the 69th week - these “things” were an obligation and commitment of the Jews. 

There is only one item that had yet to be restored- and this can only be restored by God. Thus, on the first day of the 70th week, Jesus would be both baptized by John and anointed by God in the Jordan. 
 

This would begin the last 7 years of the prophecy, the beginning of His ministry and in 9:24, God would reveal those requirements that He had given to His Son to complete DURING this final “Holy Week.”

But of course He would be rejected and crucified exactly 3.5 years within the last week (in the midst of the week). However, His sacrifice would pay the price for ALL of our sins should we place our faith in Him. 
 

Meaning, that if Jesus had not gone to the cross “in the midst of the week,” then WE, ALL OF US, would not be saved! We would have no way to pay for our sins - except through our own blood. 
 

His plan of salvation from before the beginning of the world included the cross. Jesus knew He would go to the cross BEFORE the completion of the last 7 years of His ministry (70 weeks of years prophecy)… had He NOT shortened these days, NO FLESH WOULD BE SAVED. 
 

Consequently, most of Daniel speaks to the Messiah (first coming), not the end times. 
 

Look forward to your thoughts, Charlie 
 

 

 

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks for the references! Matthew 24 is such an interesting and important series of verses that have been discussed since the time of the Messiah. They are indeed quite difficult to interpret. 
 

Almost all commentators agree they speak of the end times, and that may just be the case, but during my study of Daniel, I think they might speak to the time of the Messiah- His first coming. 

Here are the thoughts behind this:

1) Probably the most important term to discuss is the AOD, or the Abomination that causes desolation. This is always attributed to an end time event surrounding a “mythical anti-Christ figure.” 
 

This term is first mentioned in Daniel and I believe it refers to one specific event in the history of mankind- the most horrific and incomprehensible evil transgression that could be committed against our God- the Jews rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah. 

This “abomination” is the basis for God to turn away from His people for the next 2000 years (time of the Gentiles). This transgression surpassed their earlier disobedience and idolatry that resulted in their complete destruction of Jerusalem and their 70 year captivity in Babylon. This transgression (abomination), would now cause God to become completely “desolate” to His people. And this is exactly what has taken place since 70 AD.

So, how does this tie into Matthew? It ties into Matthew, Mark and Luke. 
 

In Matthew, Jesus references Daniel and says, “when you see the AOD STANDING in the holy place…

In Mark, Jesus references Daniel and says. “When you see the AOD standing where it ought not be…

In Luke, Jesus does not use the word “abomination” nor does he mention the book of Daniel, but he does refer to the time of the coming “desolation.”

All three are speaking of the same event and time in history. 
 

In Matthew, it is Jesus (abomination of the cross) who will be found STANDING in the holy place. Matthew speaks to the Jews and speaks about Jesus as a King, their Messiah. It is EXPECTED to find Him STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE- that is where Kings belong. 
 

In Mark, it is Jesus (abomination of the cross) who will found STANDING WHERE HE OUGHT NOT BE. Mark speaks about Jesus, not as a king, but as a servant. Everything in Mark speaks of Jesus as helping, serving, healing His people. Thus, Mark is telling us this same “AOD” should not be found standing in the holy place- SERVANTS DO NOT BELONG IN THE HOLY PLACE. 

But in Luke, there is a departure (seemingly) from the way this event (AOD) is presented. Here, Luke focuses on Jerusalem and the word “desolate.” Now, as a result of the AOD (Cross), Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies, THEN, desolation is near (not an end time event either). This would take place in 70 AD, and as a result of the Jews rejecting and crucifying their Messiah. Luke does not speak of Jesus as a king or a servant, but as a MAN. Consequently, no MAN could be found to “cause” complete desolation between God and His people. No MAN could be found to “cause” a complete destruction of Jerusalem and His people. Thus, this MAN is being mentioned as a time marker revealing the beginning of the time when God would cause a complete desolation between Him and His people (70 AD). 
 

That is how I found these verses to fit with the new interpretations of Daniel. 
 

Finally, a very different interpretation of Matthew 24:22, which is also tied to the Daniel prophecies might be considered:

 

24:22… Unless those days be shortened, no flesh would be saved…. 
 

Once again, all commentators treat this as an end time event when God will have to intervene in the destruction on earth otherwise everyone would perish. But I believe this is also speaking about the Messiah (His first coming). As mentioned, Jesus arrived on the first day of the 70th week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. The first 69 weeks are completed and Jerusalem, His people, all the Levitical ceremonies and practices have been reinstated, and the Sabbatical cycles are also being honored. This is the purpose of the 70 weeks of years prophecy- The things (physical and spiritual) that MUST be restored after the Babylonian destruction. 
 

Everything was fully restored by the end of the 69th week - these “things” were an obligation and commitment of the Jews. 

There is only one item that had yet to be restored- and this can only be restored by God. Thus, on the first day of the 70th week, Jesus would be both baptized by John and anointed by God in the Jordan. 
 

This would begin the last 7 years of the prophecy, the beginning of His ministry and in 9:24, God would reveal those requirements that He had given to His Son to complete DURING this final “Holy Week.”

But of course He would be rejected and crucified exactly 3.5 years within the last week (in the midst of the week). However, His sacrifice would pay the price for ALL of our sins should we place our faith in Him. 
 

Meaning, that if Jesus had not gone to the cross “in the midst of the week,” then WE, ALL OF US, would not be saved! We would have no way to pay for our sins - except through our own blood. 
 

His plan of salvation from before the beginning of the world included the cross. Jesus knew He would go to the cross BEFORE the completion of the last 7 years of His ministry (70 weeks of years prophecy)… had He NOT shortened these days, NO FLESH WOULD BE SAVED. 
 

Consequently, most of Daniel speaks to the Messiah (first coming), not the end times. 
 

Look forward to your thoughts, Charlie 
 

 

 

Oh, I forgot to mention the following:

As I mentioned, the first 69 weeks of the 70 weeks of years prophecy represented all the physical and spiritual elements that MUST be restored after the Babylonian destruction. This period would restore also restore all the elements (pieces of furniture) found within the Sanctuary- again, they would be restored by the Jews. 
 

However, the one and only piece of furniture that HAD TO BE RESTORED after the Babylonian destruction was the very first piece of furniture taken away. Prior to the Babylonian invasion, Jeremiah had removed the Ark of the Covenant from the Sanctuary. This was the first piece of furniture removed and would be the last piece of furniture restored. It would be restored in the exact reverse order they were taken. Consequently, the Ark of the Covenant would be restored in the form of the Messiah in the last week of the prophecy. Only the Messiah could restore the Presence of God in the Sanctuary. The last week of the prophecy was “set aside” for the Messiah to not only restore the Presence of God in the Sanctuary but also to fulfill 9:24. And He did! 
 

 

[farouk]

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks for the references! Matthew 24 is such an interesting and important series of verses that have been discussed since the time of the Messiah. They are indeed quite difficult to interpret. 
 

Almost all commentators agree they speak of the end times, and that may just be the case, but during my study of Daniel, I think they might speak to the time of the Messiah- His first coming. 

Here are the thoughts behind this:

1) Probably the most important term to discuss is the AOD, or the Abomination that causes desolation. This is always attributed to an end time event surrounding a “mythical anti-Christ figure.” 
 

This term is first mentioned in Daniel and I believe it refers to one specific event in the history of mankind- the most horrific and incomprehensible evil transgression that could be committed against our God- the Jews rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah. 

This “abomination” is the basis for God to turn away from His people for the next 2000 years (time of the Gentiles). This transgression surpassed their earlier disobedience and idolatry that resulted in their complete destruction of Jerusalem and their 70 year captivity in Babylon. This transgression (abomination), would now cause God to become completely “desolate” to His people. And this is exactly what has taken place since 70 AD.

So, how does this tie into Matthew? It ties into Matthew, Mark and Luke. 
 

In Matthew, Jesus references Daniel and says, “when you see the AOD STANDING in the holy place…

In Mark, Jesus references Daniel and says. “When you see the AOD standing where it ought not be…

In Luke, Jesus does not use the word “abomination” nor does he mention the book of Daniel, but he does refer to the time of the coming “desolation.”

All three are speaking of the same event and time in history. 
 

In Matthew, it is Jesus (abomination of the cross) who will be found STANDING in the holy place. Matthew speaks to the Jews and speaks about Jesus as a King, their Messiah. It is EXPECTED to find Him STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE- that is where Kings belong. 
 

In Mark, it is Jesus (abomination of the cross) who will found STANDING WHERE HE OUGHT NOT BE. Mark speaks about Jesus, not as a king, but as a servant. Everything in Mark speaks of Jesus as helping, serving, healing His people. Thus, Mark is telling us this same “AOD” should not be found standing in the holy place- SERVANTS DO NOT BELONG IN THE HOLY PLACE. 

But in Luke, there is a departure (seemingly) from the way this event (AOD) is presented. Here, Luke focuses on Jerusalem and the word “desolate.” Now, as a result of the AOD (Cross), Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies, THEN, desolation is near (not an end time event either). This would take place in 70 AD, and as a result of the Jews rejecting and crucifying their Messiah. Luke does not speak of Jesus as a king or a servant, but as a MAN. Consequently, no MAN could be found to “cause” complete desolation between God and His people. No MAN could be found to “cause” a complete destruction of Jerusalem and His people. Thus, this MAN is being mentioned as a time marker revealing the beginning of the time when God would cause a complete desolation between Him and His people (70 AD). 
 

That is how I found these verses to fit with the new interpretations of Daniel. 
 

Finally, a very different interpretation of Matthew 24:22, which is also tied to the Daniel prophecies might be considered:

 

24:22… Unless those days be shortened, no flesh would be saved…. 
 

Once again, all commentators treat this as an end time event when God will have to intervene in the destruction on earth otherwise everyone would perish. But I believe this is also speaking about the Messiah (His first coming). As mentioned, Jesus arrived on the first day of the 70th week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. The first 69 weeks are completed and Jerusalem, His people, all the Levitical ceremonies and practices have been reinstated, and the Sabbatical cycles are also being honored. This is the purpose of the 70 weeks of years prophecy- The things (physical and spiritual) that MUST be restored after the Babylonian destruction. 
 

Everything was fully restored by the end of the 69th week - these “things” were an obligation and commitment of the Jews. 

There is only one item that had yet to be restored- and this can only be restored by God. Thus, on the first day of the 70th week, Jesus would be both baptized by John and anointed by God in the Jordan. 
 

This would begin the last 7 years of the prophecy, the beginning of His ministry and in 9:24, God would reveal those requirements that He had given to His Son to complete DURING this final “Holy Week.”

But of course He would be rejected and crucified exactly 3.5 years within the last week (in the midst of the week). However, His sacrifice would pay the price for ALL of our sins should we place our faith in Him. 
 

Meaning, that if Jesus had not gone to the cross “in the midst of the week,” then WE, ALL OF US, would not be saved! We would have no way to pay for our sins - except through our own blood. 
 

His plan of salvation from before the beginning of the world included the cross. Jesus knew He would go to the cross BEFORE the completion of the last 7 years of His ministry (70 weeks of years prophecy)… had He NOT shortened these days, NO FLESH WOULD BE SAVED. 
 

Consequently, most of Daniel speaks to the Messiah (first coming), not the end times. 
 

Look forward to your thoughts, Charlie 
 

 

 

I think Matthew 24 is about after the church has gone.