God made us, doesnt he OWE us heaven???

[book_wirm]

It (the idea of eternal punishment) comes from a misunderstanding of the 'aeons' in the Greek. An 'aeon' is an age or a set predetermined period of time.

You quote several scripture to the effect that "death" is the wage of sin and then end with this concept. On some point we can agree. Death is the wage of sin. Our physical bodies will all die...because of the sin introduced to the world. You fail, however, when you make the conclusion that non-existence is the "death" spoken of with regards to the afterlife. That the lake of fire is called the second death neither proves nor disproves the eternal existence of the damned...it only says what it says: the lake of fire is the second death. The rest of scripture, however, is clear that the punishment is eternal.

You have completely mistreated the Greek word aionios to support your incorrect view. An "amount of time" or "world" is true enough a translation...when merited by the context. However, the thing your doctrine fails to remind the rest of us is that it is also can mean eternal, everlasting, or with out end. Were this not true, then you have warped the mass of scripture.

Consider what it does to the sacrifice of Christ:

Heb 9:14- ...the blood of Christ, who through the eternal (aionios) Spirit offered himself...

*Was the Spirit by which Christ offered himself eternal...or only for a time? Is it now gone then?

Consider what it does to the nature of God:

Rom 16:26

...the commandment of the everlasting (aionios) God...

*Is God everlasting? Or will even He end?

Then consider what it does to the life offered us....and the punishment warned of:

Mat 25:41 & 46

...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting (aionios) fire, prepeared for the devil and his angels:

And these shall go away into everlasting (aionios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aionios).

*So the life he mentions is eternal...but the punishment of fire is only for a season? He refers to them with the same word? Will the life offered by Christ end...as you say the punishment warned of will? No. Both are eternal. We understand clearly what is meant when God is said to be everlasting (aionios). We understand exactly that the Spirit by which Christ was offered is eternal (aionios). Why would we doubt, then, that the punishment of fire warned about and spoken of in the same terms as God Himself is any less?

In Christ,

Eric

[Smalcald]

But in a way we are again wrestling with concepts beyond our understanding.

Consider that we have eternal souls, these souls and at one time our bodies were designed to spend eternity with our creator. But , means eternal , spending eternity destroyed, that concept of having this eternity of love, and not getting it, but instead being utterly annihilated, is indeed "hellish"!

I am not saying it won't be some sort of physical . But there is evidence both ways. It really would not make a difference to me. I do know that God is merciful and just, God invented all of these concepts

When I argue with some of my family who are atheist, they bring up hell as an illogical concept about the nature of God, my response is that for an atheist, they already believe in hell, they are already consigning themselves and everyone else to a future of eternal unending annihilation.

[Guest shiloh357]

God made us, doesnt he OWE us heaven???

No, it is we who owe Him everything...

Jesus Paid It All

-1-

I hear the Savior say,

"Thy strength indeed is small;

Child of weakness, watch and pray,

Find in Me thine all in all."

Refrain

Jesus paid it all,

All to Him I owe;

Sin had left a crimson stain;

He washed it white as snow.

-2-

Lord, now indeed I find

Thy power, and Thine alone,

Can change the leper's spots,

And melt the heart of stone.

Refrain

Jesus paid it all,

All to Him I owe;

Sin had left a crimson stain;

He washed it white as snow.

-3-

Since nothing good have I

Whereby Thy grace to claim,

I'll wash my garment white

In the blood of Calvary's Lamb.

Refrain

Jesus paid it all,

All to Him I owe;

Sin had left a crimson stain;

He washed it white as snow.

-4-

And when before the throne

I stand in Him complete,

I'll lay my trophies down,

All down at Jesus' feet.

Refrain

Jesus paid it all,

All to Him I owe;

Sin had left a crimson stain;

He washed it white as snow

[RustyAngeL]

But.....it says in the Bible that hell is a place of eternal torment....and christians have given testimonies of going to hell and witnessing people in hell being tortured and burning.

Really? Which christians would they be?

I have heard people talking about dying then being brought back and seeing hell. They are passionate about it and stress how inportant it is to be saved so Heaven instead of hell will be our home. As one person said God owes us nothing. He gave His only son to die for you so that you may escape this place called hell. YOU on the other hand own Him everything. Please don't think you are owed anything, your not. To think God owes us a debt is pride at it's peak.

[CarolineS]

Daughter,

Good News!

There are only two options, life and death. The wages of sin is death. Choose ye this day, life or death. Everlasting torture is a lie of the devil. It came out of Ancient Babylon and was introduced in the dark ages by a 'Mystery Babylon' or false christianity. From the beginning the wages of sin have been death.

The first instruction that God gave to man was disobedience leads to death:

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

We choose:

Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Paul knew the wages or payment received for sin is death:

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2Tim 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

John knew:

1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

The teaching of eternal torment was not developed until long after the death of the Apostles.

It was not until the year 553 and the Council of Constantinople in the time of Justinian that the teaching of everlasting torture in hell became an official doctrine of the Catholic Church. It comes from a misunderstanding of the 'aeons' in the Greek. An 'aeon' is an age or a set predetermined period of time. All are resurected at the end of time, of 'aeons', The righteous receive endless live, and the lost suffer the 'second death' in the lake of fire. This is how and where they die. They suffer proportional to the amount of sin they commited, for God is a just God. The only things that are eternal are life and death. Life is forever and death is forever.

Because of our sins, the only thing God owes us is death. Yet in His great love, He offers us the choice to repent from our sins and choose life. It is totally up to us. We all will choose one or the other.

I have an indepth study on the subject if your interested either personal message me or email me and I will attach it to you.

God Bless,

Dennis

Dennis,

Excellent post.

You are correct. The wages of sin are death not eternal torment. Our God is a God of love and fairness. Non-believers will be punished according to their works and then cease to exist. God does not roast sinners for all of eternity due to sins that occurred during a brief lifetime.

Many people are in Babylon. They have learned much false teaching and false doctrine from their church. These doctrines have a pagan orgin and were incorporated into the Catholic Church.

People need to read and study scripture for themselves. We are not to blindly follow our religious leaders. We are to be Bereans and check the Word.

Remember, the religious leaders were wrong the first time Jesus came. They led many people astray. They will do it again the second time He comes.

In Christ,

CarolineS

[DaughterofKing]

y cant i have a third option? to just not exist, after all i didnt ask to be born, y must i choose God or be burning in hell for eternity?

[nebula]

Do you really wish to not exist? You OK?

[Keith]

Daughter, can I ask what your objections are about following God? What is it about being born again that you dislike?

[DaughterofKing]

The Christian life is TOOO HARD and a little boring quite frankly. Id rather be able to watch sex and the city, have some fun, and then just not exist anymore when i die. And anyway, thats not the point, the point is why dont i have a 3rd option, if u make me and i say no thank you and then u send me to be tortured and burn eternally, uuuummm, does that seem fair?????

Edited November 11, 2005 by DaughterofKing

[Pilgrim7]

Daughter,

The Christian is a new creation, and has been given a new heart. The old things have passed away, all things have become new. The Christian has a love for God and holiness and a hatred for sin. It is freely given by God to the repentant sinner. If you do not have this I council you to get in touch with a real christian and allow him/her to lead you into the 'new birth'. The 'new creation' does not find the things of God boring, but loves God and the things of God with all their heart, mind, soul and strength. They find the things of God of more value and more interesting than the things of the world. The kingdom of God must be within you.

2Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man/woman be in Christ, he/she isa new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

5:3 And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

God bless,

Dennis