Justice at the judgement

[Desopixi Seilynam]

21 hours ago, Ray12614 said:

Last minutes conversion by Hitler ? ? ?  Well, IF that happened, and it was genuine, then I have to say that he is saved based upon the Mercy of God, and the power of the Holy Spirit, and especially the payment for sin made by Jesus Himself.

If we sin willingly after that we have received knowledge of the truth,
there remains no more sacrifice for sin, but a certain fearful looking for of judgement
and fire indignation which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:25-27

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,
and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
and have tasted the good word of God,
and the powers of the world to come, (he's talking about miracles)
if they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance;
seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh,
and put Him to an open shame.
Hebrews 6:4-7

that which bears thorns and briers is rejected,
and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:8

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God and that God dwells in you?
He that destroys the temple will God destroy.
2 Corinthians 5:16

Be not deceived God is not mocked,
for whatsoever a man sows that shall he also reap,
he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption,
he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Galatians 6:7-8

 

If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered,
and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6

If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love
John 15:10

He that does not keep my teachings, does not love me.
John 14:24

Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
1 Corinthians 1:13

If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let them be Anathema! Oh Lord Come!
1 Corinthians 16:22

 

Because as many as are led by the Spirit of God,
they are the ones born again, children of God.

Romans 8:14

 

The words Jesus spoke are the direction the Spirit wants us to go, Jesus is the way.
His message is the good news.

-------

 

If Hitler could just say a sincere prayer and kill himself and then end up in heaven with life everlasting,
God is mocked.

 

 

In truth, Hitler could have said a sincere prayer, believing in the death and resurrection of Christ,
he would at that moment receive the Holy Spirit for free by grace.

And what would the Spirit instruct him to do, kill himself?

No, the Holy Spirit would have directed him towards justice;
go, stop all the concentration camps, turn yourself in, and face the worlds courts.
That is what the Spirit no doubt would have led him to do.
Having not followed the Spirit, having grieved the Spirit up until his death, Hitler will surely have his part in the second death.

 

 

 

 

[FreeGrace]

27 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

 

Interesting, it's like somehow you did not read what was quoted.

"Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord..." 2 Cor 5:11
That is verse 11, the very next verse, showing clearly that Paul is speaking about the terror of the Lord, not an award ceremony.

So what do think will be involved in this terror?

27 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Your idea of an award ceremony is from the preaching of modern men, not from scripture.

No, actually, from Scripture.  Apparently you have not yet read Rev 22:12 - “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

Every reference to the Lord's "coming" refers specifically to the Second Advent, and the Bema.  

27 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Whether he receive good or bad.

Right.  The "good" will be reward.  The "bad" will be loss of reward.

Apparently you have not yet read 1 Cor 3:14-15

If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

27 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Due to verse 11 we know Paul is speaking about the terror of the Lord, not the handing out of awards.

You may ignore the clear verses that teach about reward.

27 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

So we don't have to believe in Jesus Himself, only what He did?

What do you mean by that?  Of course believing in Jesus is the ONLY way to be saved.

Apparently you have not yet read Acts 16:30-31

He (jailer) then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
They (Paul and Barnabas) replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved —you and your household.”

27 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

1 Cor 3:4-15 is about the work of evangelism, not 'works' in general.

It's the whole deal.

27 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

What can be burned or not on that day are people, the wicked will be burned up, but those with sincere faith in Christ will not.

Interesting imagination.  But not correct.

27 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

On such the second death has no power. The message given by Paul and others is supposed to lead people to a real sincere relationship with Christ, if that is the case, those people, would not get burned on the day of the Lord. That is the only 'work' one can take into heaven with you, other people.

Nice sentiment, but still not correct.  We take nothing into heaven.  The Bema will occur when Jesus returns to earth as King of kings and sets up His kingdom.  The faithful will "reign with Him" per 2 Tim 2:12.  That is a reward.  Those who were not faithful will serve as servants.  And still IN the kingdom.

27 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Those who defile the temple of the Lord up until death will be destroyed; 1 Cor 3:16,

Are you assuming this is a reference to the LOF?  That would again be incorrect.  It's referring to God's divine discipline of physical death, just as 1 Cor 11:30 clearly states.

27 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

our evangelistic work should therefore lead people toward living righteously and holy.

Yes, of course. 

27 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Blessed are they that do His commands, that they may have right to the tree of life,
and may enter through the gates into the city.
Because outside of heavenly city are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers,
and idolaters, and whosoever loves and practices a lie.

Revelation 22:14-15

Another totally misunderstood text.  Scholars treat v.15 as referring to unbelievers.  However, what IMMEDIATELY follows the end phrase in v.14, "the gates INTO the city"?  The next word is "without" or "outside".  The translation you used above has words that are NOT in the Greek "of the heavenly city".  Check biblehub and see for yourself.

So v.15 isn't speaking about unbelievers that are just outside the gates of the city, the New Jerusalem.  All unbelievers have already been dispatched to the LOF which isn't anywhere close to the new earth.  

So, who then does v.15 refer to?  The believers who were not obedient or faithful during their lives, and for that, lose the reward of the tree of life, and entering through the gates of the city.

In the ancient world, entering through special gates was an honor.  In fact, winners of the Olympic games had a hole cut into the wall of the city where they came from and were honored by being the first to pass through it.

 

27 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

 

 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

33 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

So, who then does v.15 refer to?  The believers who were not obedient or faithful during their lives, and for that, lose the reward of the tree of life, and entering through the gates of the city.

That therefore is a doctrine of lawlessness. One can be a unrepentant murderer and fornicator and still end up in heaven?
Such doctrines should be obviously seen as false when one has to start speaking like this.

 

The Author of the Bible uses certain patterns to show that He is conveying the same idea in different ways.

Alpha Omega
inherit all things
liars lake of fire

Revelation 21:6-8

Alpha Omega
enter through the gates 
liars outside

Revelation 22:13-15

Same pattern, conveying the same message.

And the Holy Spirit addressing a modern false doctrine.  [ Note also Mark 10:17 and Mark 10:23 ]

God is not mocked, unrepentant murderers do not receive any part of heaven.

"Now lest they take from the tree of life and live forever...." Genesis 3:22-23

Therefore eating from the tree of life in Revelation 22:14 represents having eternal life,
those outside do not receive eternal life.

 

 

Be not deceived, God is not mocked,
for whatsoever a man sows that shall he also reap.
He that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption.
He that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

 

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

  FreeGrace said:

So, who then does v.15 refer to?  The believers who were not obedient or faithful during their lives, and for that, lose the reward of the tree of life, and entering through the gates of the city.

That therefore is a doctrine of lawlessness.

OK, a statement.  Can you support this statement with a clear verse?

1 hour ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

One can be a unrepentant murderer and fornicator and still end up in heaven?

Yes.  Or Jesus was lying.  Which is your view?

In John 5:24 Jesus said that whoever believes (present tense) HAS (possesses, also present tense) eternal life.  Do you believe Jesus?

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus said that He gives them (believers-Jn 5:24) eternal life and they shall NEVER PERISH.  Do  you believe Jesus?

If you do, you shouldn't be asking such questions.  ALL believers will "end up in heaven".  

The ONLY ones who will be condemned are those who never believed.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

To say "have not believed" is synonymous to "have NEVER believed".

So, the Bible teaches that ONCE belief, NEVER perish.  Or OSAS.

1 hour ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Such doctrines should be obviously seen as false when one has to start speaking like this.

If any kind of sin would result in one who HAS believed to not enter heaven, then the Bible is untrustworthy and Jesus lied.

I refuse to believe such FALSE claims.

1 hour ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

The Author of the Bible uses certain patterns to show that He is conveying the same idea in different ways.

I just proved from Jesus' own words that anyone who has believed has eternal life and shall never perish.

1 hour ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Alpha Omega
inherit all things
liars lake of fire

Revelation 21:6-8

Alpha Omega
enter through the gates 
liars outside

Revelation 22:13-15

Same pattern, conveying the same message.

Yes, it is, but you fail to understand the doctrine of eternal reward.  

1 hour ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

And the Holy Spirit addressing a modern false doctrine.  [ Note also Mark 10:17 and Mark 10:23 ]

So, what is this "modern false doctrine"?  If you say OSAS, then obviously you do NOT believe what Jesus said, which I just shared with you.

1 hour ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

God is not mocked, unrepentant murderers do not receive any part of heaven.

OK, then it is clear that you do NOT believe what Jesus said in either John 5:24 or John 10:28.

1 hour ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

"Now lest they take from the tree of life and live forever...." Genesis 3:22-23

Doesn't apply to anyone after A&E.

1 hour ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Therefore eating from the tree of life in Revelation 22:14 represents having eternal life,
those outside do not receive eternal life.

Nope.  You simply don't understand the doctrine of reward.  Those "outside" the gates cannot be unbelievers, since ALL of them were already dispatched to the LOF back in Rev 20:15.  So you need to "repent" of your erroneous view and learn about reward.

1 hour ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Be not deceived, God is not mocked,
for whatsoever a man sows that shall he also reap.
He that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption.
He that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

People who believe that salvation CAN be lost ARE mocking God.  Very much so.  Even this passage is about reward.

[Vine Abider]

7 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

So we don't have to believe in Jesus Himself, only what He did?

Looks like you and @Free grace are starting in on another of the infamous and unending OSAS conversations . . .

(let me get the popcorn)  

While I watch the fun, allow me to address this one question of yours above:  His grace is so very amazing and He makes it so easy for us to be saved!  Therefore Jesus said this to the Jews, "though you do not believe Me, believe the works."    Scripture even goes farther than believing in His works, to simply believing just in His name - "that believing you might have life in His name" and "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" and "no other name given under heaven whereby men must be saved."

[Desopixi Seilynam]

14 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Therefore Jesus said this to the Jews, "though you do not believe Me, believe the works." 

..that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in Him.   
John 10:38
 

My sheep hear my voice, I know them, and they follow me.

And I give unto them eternal life.

John 10:27 - 28

 

I say unto you that hear, love....

Luke 6:27

 

Jesus' sheep hear His voice and follow Him.

It is Jesus' sheep that receive eternal life.

 

 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

18 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus said that He gives them (believers-Jn 5:24) eternal life and they shall NEVER PERISH.  Do  you believe Jesus?

Jesus says He gives His sheep eternal life.     And in verse 27 He defines who His sheep are.

 

My sheep hear my voice, I know them, and they follow me.
And I give unto them eternal life.
John 10:27-28

I say unto you that hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you.
Luke 6:27

 

Therefore, if someone is a sheep of Jesus, they hear His voice and follow Him.

Otherwise they are not His sheep and do not receive eternal life.

 

 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

19 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

2 Thessalonians 1:8

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

And therefore according to 2 Thessalonians 2:12 those who have believed the truth have not delighted in wickedness.

Wickedness is sin. Wickedness is actions, works.

Those who have believed the truth have delighted in good works instead of wicked works.   [ Titus 3:8 ]

 

 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

19 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Nope.  You simply don't understand the doctrine of reward.  Those "outside" the gates cannot be unbelievers, since ALL of them were already dispatched to the LOF back in Rev 20:15.  So you need to "repent" of your erroneous view and learn about reward.

Your neglecting and ignoring Revelation 21:6-8.  

And Matthew 22:11-13

And Romans 8:13-14 together with John 3:5-6

And Ephesians 5:5

And Galatians 5:19-24

".......they that belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts."

And 2 John 1:9-11

And 1 Corinthians 16:22 together with John 14:24.

And Hebrews 10:26-28

And the full statements in John 10:27

 

The full context of scripture makes clear that sincere believers live a life of repentance,
ending up as righteous as possible by the power of the Holy Spirit inside of them.

 

Jesus' sheep receive eternal life. John 10:27-28

Jesus' sheep are they that hear His voice and follow Him, that is what Jesus specifically said: John 10:27

A sincere believer will therefore hear His voice and follow Him.

One who rejects Jesus teachings rejects the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Of how much worse punishment, suppose ye, shall he be counted worthy
who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

 

 

Edited May 31, 2024 by Desopixi Seilynam

[Desopixi Seilynam]

19 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

OK, then it is clear that you do NOT believe what Jesus said in either John 5:24 or John 10:28.

The full passage includes verse 27, Jesus defines who His sheep are, which are people that hear His voice and follow Him.

In John 10:27-28 Jesus does not say "believers" receive eternal life.

His said His "sheep", that "hear my voice" and "follow me", receive eternal life.

Read it carefully and see: John 10:27. Somehow you want to interject "sheep" as just believers,
when clearly the passage is defining sheep as those who hear and follow, not just believers.

You are trying to insist on something that is simply not in the text.

 

If you believe ALL of what Jesus said, then you would be living a certain way.
Because Jesus said things like, give and it will be given to you.
And, love even your enemies and your reward will be great.

Do you really believe Jesus? Then actions would follow.

 

 

Edited May 31, 2024 by Desopixi Seilynam