Justice at the judgement

[FreeGrace]

6 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

FreeGrace said:

That is not true!!  He condemned them for the ABSENCE of faith in him.

Where you see that in Matthew 7:21-28 ?

That's the POINT!  There is NO MENTION of faith in Christ in those verses.  In fact, the crowd was appealing on the basis of THEIR OWN WORKS. 

Black and white.   Clear as crystal.

6 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

"Not every one that says to me Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom
of heaven, but he that DOES the will of my Father"

Jesus is speaking about DOING the will of the Father.

Yes He is.  And I quoted the verse about the will of the Father.  Apparently you don't read my replies.  Why is that?

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

6 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

The will of the Father is that we obey the Son.

Yes, John 6:40

6 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19 Acts 3:22-23

No, John 3:15,16,18,36,5:24,6:40,47.  I recommand that you read them.

6 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

He that does not love me, does not keep my teachings.
John 14:24

Command for every believer.  Every saved person.

6 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

"Many will SAY TO ME in that day ....

THEREFORE WHOSOEVER hears these sayings.... "
Matthew 7:22, 24

The text is clear.  That crowd was religious, but NOT saved, since Jesus said that He NEVER knew them.

If any of them HAD ever believed in Him, He wouldn't have said what He said.

6 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Jesus is talking about WHOSOEVER.

Anybody and everybody who hears the sayings of Christ
and does not put them into practice is like a fool
that built his house upon the sand,
when the time comes, in that day, great will be the fall of that house.

The Bible is clear;  we are saved by grace, through faith, and this salvation is not of ourselves.

Trying to force works of any kind into how to be saved blasphemes the work of Christ on the cross.

[Mr. M]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

This is called spiritual death, which is what was warned about when they ate the forbidden fruit.  "in the day" that you eat of it, you shall surely die.  They both did die that day, but not physically.  They died spiritually, or their human spirit died.

Where is this explanation found in the Bible?

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Well, you provided some verses that illustrate that.  And Heb 4:12 MAKES THE DISTINCTION between the two.

And so did Paul, in 1 Cor 14:15 - What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.

Here, the "mind" is the consciousness of the person.  Also called the soul.

In other words, the soul is never the spirit.

2 Co 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Here Paul is speaking of the spirit, not the soul, which was your assertion.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

There it is in black and white.  Souls and hearts being equated.  

The soul and the heart are not being equated, this is why you are missing my point when I say that the Holy Spirit does not see soul, spirit and body separately in the matter of sanctification.

15 hours ago, Mr. M said:

1 Peter 1:22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.

Therefore, while body, soul and spirit, speak of different things, the work of sanctification by the Spirit is not compartmentalized. He does not say, "today we will work on cleansing the flesh, tomorrow we will work on the spirit", 

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Which is from our minds/hearts/souls.

Jesus states clearly that it is the heart.

Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornication, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

How about this?  I asked what actually DIED when Adam ate the fruit and you keep ignoring the question.  Please ANSWER the question and I will keep answering your questions.

 

15 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Man lost his connection to God, rendering him incapable

of reflecting the image of Whom he was made, hence,

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

This is my answer. If you need a label, call it "divine mind", which is restored by receiving the mind of Christ. You already have stated your belief that unbelievers are spiritually dead. I disagree completely, as I have already stated. They are spiritually corrupt, their foolish hearts are darkened, and the intent of the thoughts of the heart are godless.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

A man cannot have an unclean spirit if he has no spirit, or a dead spirit. You may have a different opinion, and that is fine, but I am not going to answer your quiz question with the answer that you want so you can say "Bingo", when I disagree with the statements you have been making. Saying man "died spiritually" in an attempt to explain what happened in the garden of Eden is a doctrine of man.
When God said "the day you eat of this fruit, you will surely die", that does not mean that they were supposed to drop dead, and there is no need to grapple with an explanation. Compare this to Esau forfeiting his birthright:

Hebrews 12:

16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Adam did the same. He forfeited his birthright, and found no place for repentance. God said "you shall surely die", and eventually they did.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

The judgment is not at death, but at the resurrection.

Later, God spoke this:

Genesis 6:3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

This is obviously not a birthright. The Patriarchs lived beyond 120, some children are stillborn. By the time of Moses, we find this statement:

Psalm 90:10 The days of our lives are seventy years;
And if by reason of strength they are eighty years,
Yet their boast is only labor and sorrow;
For it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

Again, obviously not a birthright. Someone cannot cite this verse and say, "God doesn't fulfill His Word, my mom died at 52.

Only one thing is certain, you shall surely die, but then will come the resurrection from the dead, and the judgment.

[NConly]

10 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Amen.

Abraham had full faith in God, and therefore was willing to actually sacrifice Isaac,
believing that what was going to happen was that God was going to resurrect Isaac.
[ Hebrews 11:19 ]

We see then that his faith was demonstrated by the actions he took.

And we see that we share in the faith of Abraham,
a belief in resurrection.
 

If our faith is in a finished work, then no actions are required.

If our faith is in the person Christ, then we are to heed His voice,
because He is alive and speaks to us now through His Spirit,
and we have good record of His teachings.

 

 These works of Abraham were before The Law Existed by Faith in God the Father.

 

[farouk]

22 hours ago, NConly said:

 

Help understand these verses, please.

Gen 2

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

@NConly As per James, true faith without evidence isn't faith in the first place.

I often think that Ephesians 2.10 which follows on from Ephesians 2.8-9 (often quoted) seems to be forgotten sometimes.

[NConly]

1 hour ago, farouk said:

@NConly As per James, true faith without evidence isn't faith in the first place.

I often think that Ephesians 2.10 which follows on from Ephesians 2.8-9 (often quoted) seems to be forgotten sometimes.

I agree I usually use Eph 2: 8-10.  

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

  FreeGrace said:

This is called spiritual death, which is what was warned about when they ate the forbidden fruit.  "in the day" that you eat of it, you shall surely die.  They both did die that day, but not physically.  They died spiritually, or their human spirit died.

Where is this explanation found in the Bible?

Really?  Are you not aware of the state of "spiritual death"??  Paul clearly mentioned it in Eph 2.  What do you think that refer to?  And why won't you answer my question about what actually DIED when Adam ate the fruit.

Explain God's warning to Adam about that fruit and what died.  That's where we find the information I presented.

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

In other words, the soul is never the spirit.

The soul is the "seat" of the whole person, including emotions, intellect, consciousness and conscience.  I am convinced that "spirit" usually means the human spirit that God gave Adam for the purpose of fellowship and worship.  And that human spirit DIED "on the day" that Adam ate the fruit.

If you have a better explanation, please share.

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

2 Co 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Here Paul is speaking of the spirit, not the soul, which was your assertion.

Then explain 1 Johnb 3:9, which is NOT about sinless perfection.

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."

The words "God's seed" is a reference to the reborn human spirit, and the believer cannot sin from THAT NATURE.  So it never needs "cleansing".  So you are misunderstanding 2 Cor 7:1.  Or explain what 1 Jn 3:9 means.

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

The soul and the heart are not being equated, this is why you are missing my point when I say that the Holy Spirit does not see soul, spirit and body separately in the matter of sanctification.

That isn't the discussion or issue.

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Therefore, while body, soul and spirit, speak of different things, the work of sanctification by the Spirit is not compartmentalized. He does not say, "today we will work on cleansing the flesh, tomorrow we will work on the spirit", 

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, not the point.  Unless you have a better and more logical explanation of what did DIE "on the day" that Adam ate the fruit, my understanding is the most logical I have seen.

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Jesus states clearly that it is the heart.

Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornication, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.

Where does Jesus say the spirit is the heart?  He didn't.  What He was explaining is what comes from the human nature, which is the immaterial soul.

From 1 John 3;9, it is impossible to sin from that nature.

Aren't you aware that believers are described as "new creatures" in 2 Cor 5:17?  What that means is that humans have two natures; the old human nature, inherited from Adam, and the new nature, which is the human spirit.

Again, if you have a better explanation with solid logic from Scripture, please share.

I don't want to be wrong any more than you do.  

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

This is my answer. If you need a label, call it "divine mind", which is restored by receiving the mind of Christ. You already have stated your belief that unbelievers are spiritually dead. I disagree completely, as I have already stated.

Well, actually, I didn't see that.  Of course unbelievers ARE spiritually dead.  Paul SAID so.  Read Eph 2:1 - As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

What kind of "death" does this refer to?  The death that Adam experienced "on the day" that he ate the fruit.

Paul continued to v.5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions

So something that was DEAD is MADE ALIVE.  And you claim unbelievers aren't spiritually dead.  So WHAT KIND of death are they in?

So far, you don't have anything logical or biblical to defend your claim.

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

They are spiritually corrupt, their foolish hearts are darkened, and the intent of the thoughts of the heart are godless.

The Bible SAYS they are "DEAD in their sins".  Sure, they are corrupt, heart (soul) is darkened and thoughts godless.  But they are DEAD in their sins.  WHAT is dead?

Recall, whatever is described as dead had to once be alive.  So now we're back to Adam.

And don't forget what Jesus told the woman at the well about what is required to worship God:  in spirit (human) and in truth.

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Recall that James wrote to believing Jews.  All of who had a reborn human spirit.  So why use "soul" in that case?

He wasn't referring to unbelievers.  He wasn't addressing unbelievers.

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

A man cannot have an unclean spirit if he has no spirit, or a dead spirit.

Now you're shifting the goal posts.  "unclean spirit" specifically refers to demons who can indwell humans, and at least pigs.  When the Bible uses the term for people, it is referring to their soul.  1 John 3:9 prevents the idea that man can sin from his reborn spirit.

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

You may have a different opinion, and that is fine, but I am not going to answer your quiz question with the answer that you want so you can say "Bingo", when I disagree with the statements you have been making.

Please don't judge how I may respond.  My question isn't a "gotcha" question.  It is a straightforward question about WHAT died when Adam ate the fruit.  And per Eph 2:5, what is MADE ALIVE?

These are biblical words and descriptions.  They MEAN something.  So, what is that something?   It seems you don't really know.
I have given you straight logic.  What do you have in response?

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Saying man "died spiritually" in an attempt to explain what happened in the garden of Eden is a doctrine of man.

This is merely an opinion.  And doesn't answer the question of WHAT died.  Apparently you don't seem to know or care.  Sad.

It seems most believers haven't even thought of these specific words and what they actually refer to.  But I have, so I ask you what they mean to you.

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

When God said "the day you eat of this fruit, you will surely die", that does not mean that they were supposed to drop dead, and there is no need to grapple with an explanation.

Of course there is a need to UNDERSTAND.  Maybe you grapple, but I've put together the verses that tie all this together, and is logical.

btw, in the literal original Hebrew, the warning is:  "dying you will surely die".  Of course they didn't drop dead, YET something DID DIE, unless you simply dismiss the warning as some kind of mystical meaning.

In the Hebrew, "dying" refers to the start of the process of physical death, and Adam lived a total of 930 years and then he dropped dead physically.  But SOMETHING did DIE on the day he ate the fruit, and you seem totally uninterested in thinking about what that might have been.

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Compare this to Esau forfeiting his birthright:

Hebrews 12:

16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Let's not derail the conversation with something unrelated.  Has no relevance.

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Adam did the same. He forfeited his birthright, and found no place for repentance.

Except you have NO EVIDENCE from the Bible for that bit of tap dancing around.

Adam DIED "on the day" he ate the fruit.  He DIED.  That means something, as all words mean something.

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

God said "you shall surely die", and eventually they did.

But God preceded the warning with "ON the day".  Do you not understand what that means?  It means Adam DIED "on the day" he ate the fruit.  

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Two deaths were experienced "on the day" Adam ate the fruit.  His body started the death process (aging) which overtook him 930 years later, but "on THAT day" his human spirit did DIE.  That is what the Bible is saying.

Unless you have a more coherent explanation.  But it seems you've never even thought of these things before, so how clould you have any kind of explanation when you haven't even thought of these things before?

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Sure.  And because of Adam, EVERY human being WILL die.  Including the "2 witnesses" in Revelation.  They die on the streets of Jerusalem.  There are 2 men from the OT who never died physically.  There is every reason to believe that they will be the 2 witnesses.

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

The judgment is not at death, but at the resurrection.

Right.  Both judgments;  the Bema for believers and the GWT for unbelievers.  But they are not at the same time.  They will be 1,000 years apart.  Rev 20 says so.

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Later, God spoke this:

Genesis 6:3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

This is reference to how long it took Noah to build the ark at God's command.  During that time, he was also to preach the warning to mankind.  

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

This is obviously not a birthright. The Patriarchs lived beyond 120, some children are stillborn. By the time of Moses, we find this statement:

Psalm 90:10 The days of our lives are seventy years;
And if by reason of strength they are eighty years,
Yet their boast is only labor and sorrow;
For it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

Again, obviously not a birthright. Someone cannot cite this verse and say, "God doesn't fulfill His Word, my mom died at 52.

Only one thing is certain, you shall surely die, but then will come the resurrection from the dead, and the judgment.

All this is more irrelevancy.  Let's stick with the issue.

If you have NO IDEA what DIED "on the day" Adam ate the fruit, just say so.  

[farouk]

18 minutes ago, NConly said:

I agree I usually use Eph 2: 8-10.  

@NConly Good to keep verses 'next-door' in mind, indeed........

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, farouk said:

@NConly As per James, true faith without evidence isn't faith in the first place.

Not true.  Evidence is necessary to demonstrate one's faith.  That is what 2:18 is about.

1 hour ago, farouk said:

I often think that Ephesians 2.10 which follows on from Ephesians 2.8-9 (often quoted) seems to be forgotten sometimes.

Do you recognize the sujunctive mood in that verse?  iow, not all believers do what it says.  But all are SUPPOSED to.  Or OUGHT to.

[Mr. M]

17 minutes ago, NConly said:

I agree I usually use Eph 2: 8-10.  

In Paul's testimony, he makes it clear that there is an immediate expectation as evidence of true repentance.

Acts 26:

19 Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision,

20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance..

[NConly]

32 minutes ago, farouk said:

@NConly Good to keep verses 'next-door' in mind, indeed........

Eph 2:8-10 and v 16 is next door .

 

Edited June 11, 2024 by NConly
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