When was Satan cast out of heaven down to the earth?

[BlindSeeker]

On 6/20/2024 at 7:14 PM, Charlie744 said:

I am going to take a little time now to comment on your terrific post. There is so much that has been brought forward and I know from my recent discussions on this forum and some outside bible study groups, that these are in conflict with today's accepted interpretations, and it is clear there is no desire to consider new interpretations.

True, I believe the adversary has successfully set up many erroneous interpretations (strongholds) over the last approx. 2,000 years to steer the God’s people away from the truth and to prevent them from not only rightly dividing God’s word, but from maintaining a bond of perfection with each other.

I also truly believe that American theologians Cyrus I. Scofield and Dr. Frank C. Thompson, perhaps more than many, have radically influenced the direction of thought of many American preachers within the last hundred years. For both these men labors were reproduced in study bibles by their adherents, having their notes and references printed therein.

However, certainly the problem does not rest with these two scholars of God’s word, but with the adversary who has been able to exploit their labors to his advantage. Nor are these the only men that have “study bibles” with their notes and thoughts in them, as there are several study bibles available by several contemporary preachers living today. However, though the scriptures are indeed the infallible Word of God, the notes of all these men are not.

Mind you, I am not saying that these men were not inspired, or that their notes are unworthy of our consideration. I am merely addressing their fallibility as being equal with all believers, as well as pointing out the cunningness of the adversary who has utilized their works in such a way as to exploit points in their speculation which missed the mark of the truth to redirect the slothful away from it.

Neither am I insinuating that these were seasoned men of God who willingly allowed other students of God’s word to prayerfully consider the path of their thoughts which they put forth for open scrutiny, for you and I are doing none the less here. And I do believe it would evidence of one’s pride and folly to deny that their works are credible evidence that they prayerfully studied the scriptures to show themselves approved unto God. However, I absolutely feel that their notes and suggestions must not be elevated to the place of being worthy of one’s blind and unchallenged acceptance as inerrant truth.

Nonetheless, many seminaries, and therefore preachers, use both the Scofield and Thompson’s reference bibles as reliable guides for both the teaching and learning of theology. Therefore, among normal laymen believers, the cross-references, with their notes, and their implications of “this is that”, have become widely accepted and by many trusted to being reliably sacred as the rest of the printed text on the pages of their study bibles, that is, the scriptures themselves. For if Scofield or Thompson linked certain New Testament passages to Old Testament passages, then it must be correct, right? After all it is printed right there in black and white in the study bible. 

No, may the Church cease from being so foolish, and be more committed to “prove all things,” laying it all upon God’s altar with an earnest desire for Him test it with His holy fire. Surely, God rewards the diligent seeker, and not those who lazily just accept other men’s labor no matter how noble it was.

Only those who prayerfully study to show themselves approved, endeavoring to be faithfully by rightly dividing (and applying) the Word of God, will be rewarded with divine understanding. The rest lean upon a reed, a mere learned a theology with a memorization of its proposed scriptural support. But the diligent and prayerful in their study of God’s word, coupled with obedience to it, are often rewarded of the Holy Spirit with an understanding that often excels their teachers. May we strive to outrun those before us as John did Peter to see the tomb.

 

On 6/20/2024 at 7:14 PM, Charlie744 said:

1) In 8:13-14, it is Jesus Himself is tells Daniel that there will be 2300 evenings and mornings and then the sanctuary will be cleansed. The refers entirely to the "mareh" vision as opposed to the "chazon" vision. Within Daniel 8 the word "vision" is found 9 times. Six refer to the "chazon" vision and 3 to the "mareh" vision. The chazon vision begins in 457 BC and continues to the end of time. The mareh vision is an "appearance type vision," a short term vision and covers 2300 literal days.

I am comfortable with much of what you stated regarding the division of the 70^th week, and the necessity of it to be concluded before Daniel’s prophecy is fully fulfilled.   However, I would like to make a submittal for your review regarding Daniel 8:13-14 and the 2300 days....

In Adam Clarke's commentary regarding verse 14, he writes –

“Unto two thousand and three hundred days] - Though literally it be two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings. Yet I think the prophetic day should be understood here, as in other parts of this prophet, and must signify so many years. If we date these years from the vision of the he-goat, (Alexander's invading Asia,) this was A.M. 3670, B.C. 334; and two thousand three hundred years from that time will reach to A.D. 1966, or one hundred and forty-one years from the present A.D. 1825. This will bring it near to the time mentioned Da 7:25, where see the note.”

Now, not to do with Adam Clarke what has been done with Scofield and Thompson, and ingest everything he says hook, line, and sinker, for I do not agree with his notes on I do find it quite interesting in his pondering these points it led him to 1966.

Now, if we subtract 1966 years from the 2300 we do indeed end up with 333 years. However, as was brought to my attention by another brother, from year 1 D.C. to 1 A.D. there is only 1 year to be counted since there is no zero year to be counted in the timeline, while others say 2. So, since we do not know the month or exact time of year that Alexander the Great entrance into the Persian-ruled Asia Minor in this noted “334 B.C.”  and with calendars being switched, I.e., the Roman, Julian, and Gregorian current, it isn’t a stretch to see that 1966 becoming a feasible 1967, in which the Jews regained control of the Temple mount.

Plus, Josephus in “The Antiquities of the Jews,” Book XI, chapter VIII, paragraph 5, tells this story of Alexander the Great arriving in Jerusalem:

“And when he (the High Priest) understood that he (Alexander the Great) was not far from the city (Jerusalem), he (the High Priest) went out in procession with the priests and the multitude of citizens. The procession was venerable, and the manner of it different from that of other nations … and when the Phoenicians and the Chaldeans that followed him (Alexander the Great), thought that they should have liberty to plunder the city, and torment the high priest to death, which the king’s displeasure fairly promised them, the very reverse of it happened; for Alexander, when he (Alexander the Great) saw the multitude at a distance, in white garments, while the priests stood clothed in fine linen, and the high priest in purple and scarlet clothing, with his miter on his head, having the golden plate whereon the name of God was engraved, he (Alexander the Great) approached by himself, and adored that name (the name of God), and first saluted the high priest. The Jews also did altogether, with one voice, salute Alexander, and encompass him about; where upon the kings of Syria and the rest were surprised at what Alexander had done, and supposed him disordered in his mind (They thought Alexander was crazy for bowing before the High Priest). However, Parmenio alone went up to him (Alexander the Great) and asked him how it came to pass that, when all others adored him, he should adore the high priest of the Jews? To whom he replied, “I did not adore him, but that G-d who hath honored him with his high-priesthood; for I saw this very person in a dream, in this very habit (high priestly garment), when I was at Dios in Macedonia, who, when I was considering with myself, how I might obtain the dominion of Asia, exhorted me to make no delay, but boldly to pass over the sea thither, for that he (God) would conduct my army, and would give me the dominion over the Persians; whence it is, that having seen no other in that habit (high priestly garment), and now seeing this person in it, and remembering that vision, and the exhortation which I had in my dream, I believe that I bring this army under the divine conduct, and shall therewith conquer Darius, and destroy the power of the Persians, and that all things will succeed according to what is in my own mind.”

When the high priest went outside Jerusalem to meet Alexander the Great, he took the book of Daniel to show Alexander the prophecies concerning him. To which Alexander was so moved that he went to the temple to offer a sacrifice and worshipped God.

Thus, I believe it is very feasible that Adam Clarke was indeed on to something regarding the fulfillment of the 2300 days….

I do believe all this is crucial to a proper understanding the seventy weeks as a prophetic period of time pertaining to Daniels people and the holy city, and the sealing up of the vision.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2024 by BlindSeeker

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, BlindSeeker said:

True, I believe the adversary has successfully set up many erroneous interpretations (strongholds) over the last approx. 2,000 years to steer the God’s people away from the truth and to prevent them from not only rightly dividing God’s word, but from maintaining a bond of perfection with each other.

I also truly believe that American theologians Cyrus I. Scofield and Dr. Frank C. Thompson, perhaps more than many, have radically influenced the direction of thought of many American preachers within the last hundred years. For both these men labors were reproduced in study bibles by their adherents, having their notes and references printed therein.

However, certainly the problem does not rest with these two scholars of God’s word, but with the adversary who has been able to exploit their labors to his advantage. Nor are these the only men that have “study bibles” with their notes and thoughts in them, as there are several study bibles available by several contemporary preachers living today. However, though the scriptures are indeed the infallible Word of God, the notes of all these men are not.

Mind you, I am not saying that these men were not inspired, or that their notes are unworthy of our consideration. I am merely addressing their fallibility as being equal with all believers, as well as pointing out the cunningness of the adversary who has utilized their works in such a way as to exploit points in their speculation which missed the mark of the truth to redirect the slothful away from it.

Neither am I insinuating that these were seasoned men of God who willingly allowed other students of God’s word to prayerfully consider the path of their thoughts which they put forth for open scrutiny, for you and I are doing none the less here. And I do believe it would evidence of one’s pride and folly to deny that their works are credible evidence that they prayerfully studied the scriptures to show themselves approved unto God. However, I absolutely feel that their notes and suggestions must not be elevated to the place of being worthy of one’s blind and unchallenged acceptance as inerrant truth.

Nonetheless, many seminaries, and therefore preachers, use both the Scofield and Thompson’s reference bibles as reliable guides for both the teaching and learning of theology. Therefore, among normal laymen believers, the cross-references, with their notes, and their implications of “this is that”, have become widely accepted and by many trusted to being reliably sacred as the rest of the printed text on the pages of their study bibles, that is, the scriptures themselves. For if Scofield or Thompson linked certain New Testament passages to Old Testament passages, then it must be correct, right? After all it is printed right there in black and white in the study bible. 

No, may the Church cease from being so foolish, and be more committed to “prove all things,” laying it all upon God’s altar with an earnest desire for Him test it with His holy fire. Surely, God rewards the diligent seeker, and not those who lazily just accept other men’s labor no matter how noble it was.

Only those who prayerfully study to show themselves approved, endeavoring to be faithfully by rightly dividing (and applying) the Word of God, will be rewarded with divine understanding. The rest lean upon a reed, a mere learned a theology with a memorization of its proposed scriptural support. But the diligent and prayerful in their study of God’s word, coupled with obedience to it, are often rewarded of the Holy Spirit with an understanding that often excels their teachers. May we strive to outrun those before us as John did Peter to see the tomb.

 

I am comfortable with much of what you stated regarding the division of the 70^th week, and the necessity of it to be concluded before Daniel’s prophecy is fully fulfilled.   However, I would like to make a submittal for your review regarding Daniel 8:13-14 and the 2300 days....

In Adam Clarke's commentary regarding verse 14, he writes –

“Unto two thousand and three hundred days] - Though literally it be two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings. Yet I think the prophetic day should be understood here, as in other parts of this prophet, and must signify so many years. If we date these years from the vision of the he-goat, (Alexander's invading Asia,) this was A.M. 3670, B.C. 334; and two thousand three hundred years from that time will reach to A.D. 1966, or one hundred and forty-one years from the present A.D. 1825. This will bring it near to the time mentioned Da 7:25, where see the note.”

Now, not to do with Adam Clarke what has been done with Scofield and Thompson, and ingest everything he says hook, line, and sinker, for I do not agree with his notes on I do find it quite interesting in his pondering these points it led him to 1966.

Now, if we subtract 1966 years from the 2300 we do indeed end up with 333 years. However, as was brought to my attention by another brother, from year 1 D.C. to 1 A.D. there is only 1 year to be counted since there is no zero year to be counted in the timeline, while others say 2. So, since we do not know the month or exact time of year that Alexander the Great entrance into the Persian-ruled Asia Minor in this noted “334 B.C.”  and with calendars being switched, I.e., the Roman, Julian, and Gregorian current, it isn’t a stretch to see that 1966 becoming a feasible 1967, in which the Jews regained control of the Temple mount.

Plus, Josephus in “The Antiquities of the Jews,” Book XI, chapter VIII, paragraph 5, tells this story of Alexander the Great arriving in Jerusalem:

“And when he (the High Priest) understood that he (Alexander the Great) was not far from the city (Jerusalem), he (the High Priest) went out in procession with the priests and the multitude of citizens. The procession was venerable, and the manner of it different from that of other nations … and when the Phoenicians and the Chaldeans that followed him (Alexander the Great), thought that they should have liberty to plunder the city, and torment the high priest to death, which the king’s displeasure fairly promised them, the very reverse of it happened; for Alexander, when he (Alexander the Great) saw the multitude at a distance, in white garments, while the priests stood clothed in fine linen, and the high priest in purple and scarlet clothing, with his miter on his head, having the golden plate whereon the name of God was engraved, he (Alexander the Great) approached by himself, and adored that name (the name of God), and first saluted the high priest. The Jews also did altogether, with one voice, salute Alexander, and encompass him about; where upon the kings of Syria and the rest were surprised at what Alexander had done, and supposed him disordered in his mind (They thought Alexander was crazy for bowing before the High Priest). However, Parmenio alone went up to him (Alexander the Great) and asked him how it came to pass that, when all others adored him, he should adore the high priest of the Jews? To whom he replied, “I did not adore him, but that G-d who hath honored him with his high-priesthood; for I saw this very person in a dream, in this very habit (high priestly garment), when I was at Dios in Macedonia, who, when I was considering with myself, how I might obtain the dominion of Asia, exhorted me to make no delay, but boldly to pass over the sea thither, for that he (God) would conduct my army, and would give me the dominion over the Persians; whence it is, that having seen no other in that habit (high priestly garment), and now seeing this person in it, and remembering that vision, and the exhortation which I had in my dream, I believe that I bring this army under the divine conduct, and shall therewith conquer Darius, and destroy the power of the Persians, and that all things will succeed according to what is in my own mind.”

When the high priest went outside Jerusalem to meet Alexander the Great, he took the book of Daniel to show Alexander the prophecies concerning him. To which Alexander was so moved that he went to the temple to offer a sacrifice and worshipped God.

Thus, I believe it is very feasible that Adam Clarke was indeed on to something regarding the fulfillment of the 2300 days….

I do believe all this is crucial to a proper understanding the seventy weeks as a prophetic period of time pertaining to Daniels people and the holy city, and the sealing up of the vision.

Once again, very nice information and presentation.

Firstly, I enjoy reading or did enjoy reading Clarke during my studies. There are more than a few mathematical calculations trying to interpret the 2300 evenings an mornings prophecy. Almost all of them claim their interpretation should stand and provide the algebra to prove it.

However, I believe they are all looking in the wrong direction.. not because they differ from my interpretation, but because theirs does not consider that most of the prophecies within Daniel speak to the coming Messiah.

The 70 weeks of years prophecy is all about the restoration of the Jews and their city back to its pre-Babylonian state. But God will use this restoration process to reveal His coming as the Ark of the Covenant as the last piece of furniture to be restored in the Sanctuary in the last week. He will use this presentation to reveal His plan of salvation and restoration to bring His people and mankind back into the Garden through His perfect sacrifice.

Daniel is all about God's plan of salvation.... the 2300 days must speak about His cleansing of the Sanctuary.... after the cross, all the physical elements, the Temple, the Sanctuary, etc., will be done away with...They will have fulfilled their God given mission... thus, these prophecies speak about His time during His ministry when He will fulfill His God given mission -9:24. 

There is nothing in Daniel that speaks about future nations, tanks or aircraft, nuclear missles, the EU, Russia, the USA, Islam, etc. (and if it is not in Daniel, you will not find it in Revelation). In chapter 2, God gave us the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that will come upon the earth - within His plan of salvation. He will use only these 4 to reveal everything necessary for us to understand His plan of salvation. Certainly, there will be thousands of nations that will come upon the earth, but they are not within His plan. 

I believe whether one is on the left or the right, whether they are labeled preterist or futurist or some other label, both sides are guilty of intepreting much of Daniel in a "historical" approach, or a "futuristic" approach. Meaning, for example, some will try to identify the "he" in 9:27 as AE, while the other side will declare "he" is a mythical anti-Christ figure coming some 2000 years in the future. Both fail to consider that these most messianic prophecies are about our Messiah.

That would include Clarke, Gill, Benson, Henry, Keil, Barnes, or any of the contempory commentators.

Daniel provides the "structure" for all the prophecies that will be found in these 12 chapters - all within one of the four kingdoms and only those 4 kingdoms.

All of the actors within His plan of salvation will be identified in chapter 2 except for one and only one actor - that would be the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8 - he is the only one that is not a king or kingdom (papal Rome) that was brought out of the sea or the earth by God.... He will continue until the end and he is the one that goes against  God and speaks pompous things against Him. He is not the anti-Christ because there is NO anti-Christ figure. There are those who have the spirit of anti-Christ but the evil one is indeed the little horn - God has gone to great lengths in Daniel to reveal him.

But getting back to the 2300 days... it is only God who can cleanse the Sanctuary - and it is the one in heaven.

 

Hope this makes sense... somewhat... best wishes, Charlie

[bloom]

On 6/18/2024 at 10:22 PM, Montana Marv said:

You are wrong, they do speak of Israel :r period.

No; He (the Cross) is the redemption of mankind, it is the Worthy Christ bearing the sins of the world.. (not an abomination)...  Our being Crucified with Christ is not an abomination.  You are dead wrong.

Do I need to go any further

In Christ

Montana Marv

The Abomination would be continuing sacrifices after Lamb of God made the supreme sacrifice, hence the "desolations". The false prophet and the false messiah will try it again in the last 42 months then the end.

[BlindSeeker]

On 6/24/2024 at 11:37 PM, Charlie744 said:

I believe whether one is on the left or the right, whether they are labeled preterist or futurist or some other label, both sides are guilty of intepreting much of Daniel in a "historical" approach, or a "futuristic" approach. Meaning, for example, some will try to identify the "he" in 9:27 as AE, while the other side will declare "he" is a mythical anti-Christ figure coming some 2000 years in the future. Both fail to consider that these most messianic prophecies are about our Messiah.

That would include Clarke, Gill, Benson, Henry, Keil, Barnes, or any of the contempory commentators.

I agree, there is much diversity in speculation among the commentators, which certainly speaks to error being in the camp. Such is why I stated that I did not wish "to do with Adam Clarke what has been done with Scofield and Thompson, and ingest everything he says hook, line, and sinker, for I do not agree with his notes on Dan. 7:25." But nonetheless, I still find it quite interesting how his pondering these points led him to “1966," which I believe might possibly include 1967. That said, while I do believe it feasible and see how it might have relative truth in it, I do not claim to know its full significance if true.

On 6/24/2024 at 11:37 PM, Charlie744 said:

There is nothing in Daniel that speaks about future nations, tanks or aircraft, nuclear missles, the EU, Russia, the USA, Islam, etc. (and if it is not in Daniel, you will not find it in Revelation).  

I am persuaded that Daniel faithfully wrote that “which God gave unto him,” and that to show to his people “things which must shortly come to pass,” even as “He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John.” Each of them according to their time, measure of grace, and circuit of influence, were given proportions of revelation sufficient for the purpose of God, according to His wisdom for the guidance and preparation of His people. For none can deny that the revelation of the mystery of God has been given progressively, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little.

For clearly there was a measure given to Daniel, even a measure going beyond his own understanding reaching outside his days, and not necessary for his people then. This is clearly seen as Daniel testified, “I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, O my lord, what shall be the end of these things?  And He said, Go Daniel! For the words are closed and sealed until the end-time… But you go on to the end, for you shall rest and stand in your lot at the end of the days.”

Wisdom and knowledge, like grace, are given sufficiently for the day a hand.

On 6/24/2024 at 11:37 PM, Charlie744 said:

In chapter 2, God gave us the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that will come upon the earth - within His plan of salvation. He will use only these 4 to reveal everything necessary for us to understand His plan of salvation. Certainly, there will be thousands of nations that will come upon the earth, but they are not within His plan.

True, but only to a degree, for Israel’s prophetic history will certainly be found to have more nations to have been prophetically involved with her before the Lord’s return. Thus, we will indeed find Revelation prophetically adding on to Daniels four, as well as including two more which Daniel didn’t mention. That being Egypt and Assyria, as they were already in Israel’s past. Daniel is merely, for the most part, focusing primarily on the rise of those empires from his present day up to the coming of Messiah; Babylon, Medo-Peria, Greece and Rome.

In fact, the Apostle John’s angel takes the number of nation’s having prophetic correlation with Israel up to a total of eight –

“For there are seven kings: five have fallen, and one is, and the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must continue a short space. And then [lastly] the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition.”

These beasts/empires, as I stated, have been prophetically connected to Israel via the Rev. 13:1 which rises out of the sea. This beast, representing the sum of the 8 in all its prophetic imagery in Rev. 13-18, still nevertheless represents that last eighth empire that goes into perdition, which is indeed destroyed with fire.

But note, John is told regarding this beast, and thus faithfully tells us, “If any man has an ear, let him hear. He that leads into captivity shall go into captivity: he that kills with the sword [a weapon of war] must be killed with the [same weapon of war] sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.” Thus, the perdition will come by a weapon of extreme annihilating fire.

 

On 6/24/2024 at 11:37 PM, Charlie744 said:

...except for one and only one actor - that would be the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8...

 These little horns, mentioned in Daniel 7 and 8, are separate and distinct horns.

 The little horn in Chapter 7 comes from the fourth beast (representing Rome) with 10 horns on it, (representing the providences/empires which would arise after it deteriorates and crumbles into fractions- which to the best of my knowledge would be as follows –

1.           The Roman senate. 

2.           The Greeks, in Ravenna. 

3.           The Lombards in Lombardy.

4.           The Huns in Hungary. 

5.           The Alemans in Germany.

6.           The Franks in France.

7.           The Burgundians in Burgundy.

8.           The Saracens in Africa and part of Spain. 

9.           The Goths in other parts of Spain. 

10.          The Saxons in Britain.

 

That little horn in Daniel 7 rises out of the midst of these, and then subdues 3 of them, as it says, “before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots.” This horn is also given the same judgment, for the same offense, as the beast in Rev: 13 –

 Daniel 7:8b &11 - …behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things… I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Revelation - 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven… 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This “little horn” I believe represents America, of which in their fighting for independence, the colonists and settlers fought against Spain, Britain, and France virtually “plucking up their roots” from clinging to any soil, leaving the colonist with what they believed and called “New Jerusalem,” America. Not a monarchical empire, but a republic. Hence, this one “little horn” was never called a “king.”

The second little horn, though mention after the first, still appears after the He-goat with the notable horn (Greece and Alexander the Great – 3^rd beast) defeats the Ram with two horns (Medo-Persia, with Darius and Cyrus - 2^nd beast ). After Alexander’s death his kingdom is divided among his generals, and out of one of their areas arise this “little horn.” This is all of course preceding the rise of the 4^th beast – Rome.

Adam Clarke presents the following -

“And for it came up four notable ones] The regal family being all dead, the governors of provinces usurped the title of kings; and Antigonus, one of them, being slain at the battle of Ipsus, they were reduced to four, as we have already seen. 1. SELEUCUS, who had Syria and Babylon, from whom came the Seleucidae, famous in history. 2. LYSIMACHUS, who had Asia Minor. 3. PTOLEMY, son of Lagus, who had Egypt, from whom sprang the Lagidae. And, 4. CASSANDER, who had Greece and the neighbouring countries. These held dominion towards the four winds of heaven. Cassander had the western parts, Lysimachus had the northern regions, Ptolemy possessed the southern countries, and Seleucus had the eastern provinces.”

Thus, the little horn in Daniel 8 precedes historically to the little horn in Daniel 7.

 As this is not the topic of the OP, concerning “the eighth,” and for my views and research I would simply redirect you...

THE EIGHTH BEAST – America in Prophesy

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

I agree, there is much diversity in speculation among the commentators, which certainly speaks to error being in the camp. Such is why I stated that I did not wish "to do with Adam Clarke what has been done with Scofield and Thompson, and ingest everything he says hook, line, and sinker, for I do not agree with his notes on Dan. 7:25." But nonetheless, I still find it quite interesting how his pondering these points led him to “1966," which I believe might possibly include 1967. That said, while I do believe it feasible and see how it might have relative truth in it, I do not claim to know its full significance if true.

I am persuaded that Daniel faithfully wrote that “which God gave unto him,” and that to show to his people “things which must shortly come to pass,” even as “He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John.” Each of them according to their time, measure of grace, and circuit of influence, were given proportions of revelation sufficient for the purpose of God, according to His wisdom for the guidance and preparation of His people. For none can deny that the revelation of the mystery of God has been given progressively, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little.

For clearly there was a measure given to Daniel, even a measure going beyond his own understanding reaching outside his days, and not necessary for his people then. This is clearly seen as Daniel testified, “I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, O my lord, what shall be the end of these things?  And He said, Go Daniel! For the words are closed and sealed until the end-time… But you go on to the end, for you shall rest and stand in your lot at the end of the days.”

Wisdom and knowledge, like grace, are given sufficiently for the day a hand.

True, but only to a degree, for Israel’s prophetic history will certainly be found to have more nations to have been prophetically involved with her before the Lord’s return. Thus, we will indeed find Revelation prophetically adding on to Daniels four, as well as including two more which Daniel didn’t mention. That being Egypt and Assyria, as they were already in Israel’s past. Daniel is merely, for the most part, focusing primarily on the rise of those empires from his present day up to the coming of Messiah; Babylon, Medo-Peria, Greece and Rome.

In fact, the Apostle John’s angel takes the number of nation’s having prophetic correlation with Israel up to a total of eight –

“For there are seven kings: five have fallen, and one is, and the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must continue a short space. And then [lastly] the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition.”

These beasts/empires, as I stated, have been prophetically connected to Israel via the Rev. 13:1 which rises out of the sea. This beast, representing the sum of the 8 in all its prophetic imagery in Rev. 13-18, still nevertheless represents that last eighth empire that goes into perdition, which is indeed destroyed with fire.

But note, John is told regarding this beast, and thus faithfully tells us, “If any man has an ear, let him hear. He that leads into captivity shall go into captivity: he that kills with the sword [a weapon of war] must be killed with the [same weapon of war] sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.” Thus, the perdition will come by a weapon of extreme annihilating fire.

 

 These little horns, mentioned in Daniel 7 and 8, are separate and distinct horns.

 The little horn in Chapter 7 comes from the fourth beast (representing Rome) with 10 horns on it, (representing the providences/empires which would arise after it deteriorates and crumbles into fractions- which to the best of my knowledge would be as follows –

1.           The Roman senate. 

2.           The Greeks, in Ravenna. 

3.           The Lombards in Lombardy.

4.           The Huns in Hungary. 

5.           The Alemans in Germany.

6.           The Franks in France.

7.           The Burgundians in Burgundy.

8.           The Saracens in Africa and part of Spain. 

9.           The Goths in other parts of Spain. 

10.          The Saxons in Britain.

 

That little horn in Daniel 7 rises out of the midst of these, and then subdues 3 of them, as it says, “before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots.” This horn is also given the same judgment, for the same offense, as the beast in Rev: 13 –

 Daniel 7:8b &11 - …behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things… I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Revelation - 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven… 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This “little horn” I believe represents America, of which in their fighting for independence, the colonists and settlers fought against Spain, Britain, and France virtually “plucking up their roots” from clinging to any soil, leaving the colonist with what they believed and called “New Jerusalem,” America. Not a monarchical empire, but a republic. Hence, this one “little horn” was never called a “king.”

The second little horn, though mention after the first, still appears after the He-goat with the notable horn (Greece and Alexander the Great – 3^rd beast) defeats the Ram with two horns (Medo-Persia, with Darius and Cyrus - 2^nd beast ). After Alexander’s death his kingdom is divided among his generals, and out of one of their areas arise this “little horn.” This is all of course preceding the rise of the 4^th beast – Rome.

Adam Clarke presents the following -

“And for it came up four notable ones] The regal family being all dead, the governors of provinces usurped the title of kings; and Antigonus, one of them, being slain at the battle of Ipsus, they were reduced to four, as we have already seen. 1. SELEUCUS, who had Syria and Babylon, from whom came the Seleucidae, famous in history. 2. LYSIMACHUS, who had Asia Minor. 3. PTOLEMY, son of Lagus, who had Egypt, from whom sprang the Lagidae. And, 4. CASSANDER, who had Greece and the neighbouring countries. These held dominion towards the four winds of heaven. Cassander had the western parts, Lysimachus had the northern regions, Ptolemy possessed the southern countries, and Seleucus had the eastern provinces.”

Thus, the little horn in Daniel 8 precedes historically to the little horn in Daniel 7.

 As this is not the topic of the OP, concerning “the eighth,” and for my views and research I would simply redirect you...

THE EIGHTH BEAST – America in Prophesy

Thank you for your thoughts. I do believe that you are in the majority on so much of the interpretations of the latter chapters in Daniel. 
 
I am not in the majority, I am not in the minority! I have a completely different set of new interpretations. Consequently, I cannot even represent 1/10th of 1%. 

There are so many complicated verses in Daniel and your response has brought forward more than a few that are, in my opinion, MAJOR, prophecies. 
 

As with every topic that is posted on this site, they seem to migrate in many directions at the same time.

 

If you would like to discuss your views on some of these, that would be great… and since my new interpretations are just that, I would welcome any within this forum to join in and present their thoughts. 
 

Since  you mentioned the 10 kings, we might start there.. unless you have a favorite topic in Daniel that you would like to go through.

Please let me know what sub-topic interests you the most in Daniel. Thanks and best wishes, Charlie 

 

 

[BlindSeeker]

18 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you for your thoughts. I do believe that you are in the majority on so much of the interpretations of the latter chapters in Daniel. 

I am not in the majority, I am not in the minority! I have a completely different set of new interpretations. Consequently, I cannot even represent 1/10th of 1%. 

There are so many complicated verses in Daniel and your response has brought forward more than a few that are, in my opinion, MAJOR, prophecies. 

As with every topic that is posted on this site, they seem to migrate in many directions at the same time.

If you would like to discuss your views on some of these, that would be great… and since my new interpretations are just that, I would welcome any within this forum to join in and present their thoughts. 

Since  you mentioned the 10 kings, we might start there.. unless you have a favorite topic in Daniel that you would like to go through.

Please let me know what sub-topic interests you the most in Daniel. Thanks and best wishes, Charlie 

Greetings Brother Charlie,

I do know not where I stand in the variety of interpretations out there, or even care, whether they be major (speaking of Christ) or minor (concerning things to come). I also would find it hard to believe that I, or anyone, was aligned in agreement with another concerning all things. I only know I endeavor to be standing blameless, watchful, and faithful to He who has saved me.

For if, as Paul says in Roman’s 14, that one man may observe a thing as unto the Lord, and another a seemingly differing thing, yet as to the Lord, that both are nonetheless equally accepted because of their motive to glorify Christ. And yes, it is true one is said to be weak in faith, and the other strong, with the responsibility clearly resting upon the latter to remain humble and eagerly willing to through patience, prayer, and opportunity, to labor to bring his brother into a greater understanding, confidence, liberty, and boldness in Christ.

Concerning the topics I am most interested in depends on my daily walk with the Lord. I find Him very faithful in His ministering to my heart. Often, in a quiet time of stillness before Him, He has unfolded things before me. In these times He has by His Holy Spirit, as it were, downloaded into my heart and mind what seems to be volumes of lineal thought on subjects not within my present consideration. Almost like the Holy Spirit saying, “Oh, by the way…,” as He begins bringing verse after verse to mind in a fresh light and correlation. It has been like a 3-hour sermon being embedded within me in a matter of moments.

These “downloads” often take weeks to thoroughly review under an amazement I hadn’t seen it as such before. And yes, there are also times when just reading or listening to another that the illumination goes brighter with nearly equal effect.

 Still, regardless of the keenness with which I think I know and understand something, I did eventually learn to leave it all upon His altar, ever praying for it all to be constantly challenged and purified by His holy fire.

That said, since my mentioning the 10 kings prompted you, feel free to submit and substantiate your thoughts thereon.

Stay blessable

 

 

 

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

Greetings Brother Charlie,

I do know not where I stand in the variety of interpretations out there, or even care, whether they be major (speaking of Christ) or minor (concerning things to come). I also would find it hard to believe that I, or anyone, was aligned in agreement with another concerning all things. I only know I endeavor to be standing blameless, watchful, and faithful to He who has saved me.

For if, as Paul says in Roman’s 14, that one man may observe a thing as unto the Lord, and another a seemingly differing thing, yet as to the Lord, that both are nonetheless equally accepted because of their motive to glorify Christ. And yes, it is true one is said to be weak in faith, and the other strong, with the responsibility clearly resting upon the latter to remain humble and eagerly willing to through patience, prayer, and opportunity, to labor to bring his brother into a greater understanding, confidence, liberty, and boldness in Christ.

Concerning the topics I am most interested in depends on my daily walk with the Lord. I find Him very faithful in His ministering to my heart. Often, in a quiet time of stillness before Him, He has unfolded things before me. In these times He has by His Holy Spirit, as it were, downloaded into my heart and mind what seems to be volumes of lineal thought on subjects not within my present consideration. Almost like the Holy Spirit saying, “Oh, by the way…,” as He begins bringing verse after verse to mind in a fresh light and correlation. It has been like a 3-hour sermon being embedded within me in a matter of moments.

These “downloads” often take weeks to thoroughly review under an amazement I hadn’t seen it as such before. And yes, there are also times when just reading or listening to another that the illumination goes brighter with nearly equal effect.

 Still, regardless of the keenness with which I think I know and understand something, I did eventually learn to leave it all upon His altar, ever praying for it all to be constantly challenged and purified by His holy fire.

That said, since my mentioning the 10 kings prompted you, feel free to submit and substantiate your thoughts thereon.

Stay blessable

 

 

 

Very nice. 
 Ok, that would be a great topic to discuss. 
 

So, to properly understand the 10 kings, it is necessary to start with Chapter 2. (and, should we continue through this you will understand why - at least my interpretation, but that doesn’t mean you will accept it or you will not provide your interpretations as we move slowly through this). 
 

1. I had no idea who the 10 toes were, the 10 horns were, the 10 kings were within the 3 chapters, 2,7, and 8, for quite some time. 
 

2. First, do you find these 10 all speak of the same group, or do they represent 3 different groups?

3. Do you find they are 10 coming in the future- still yet to come, during a post- Daniel time, during a post-Messiah time, or during a post- Little horn time (this assumes the little horn is the papacy that began around 500 AD?

That should get us started… look forward to your thoughts!

Best wishes, Charlie 

 

[BlindSeeker]

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

So, to properly understand the 10 kings, it is necessary to start with Chapter 2. (and, should we continue through this you will understand why - at least my interpretation, but that doesn’t mean you will accept it or you will not provide your interpretations as we move slowly through this). 

 Well then, that seems like a most logical place for you begin you presentation, and if it be sound and true, may the Lord grant me grace to discern it as such.

 

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

1. I had no idea who the 10 toes were, the 10 horns were, the 10 kings were within the 3 chapters, 2,7, and 8, for quite some time. 

Perhaps then you can explain then why the ten horns are introduced following the decline of Greece with to rising of the Roman Empire, since their appearance in prophecy arrives upon the coming fourth beast’s head.

Also, what is it that has persuaded you that the “little horn,” which Daniel says arises from these ten, is the same little horn which comes from one of the four providences under the control Alexander’s surviving generals.

 

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

2. First, do you find these 10 all speak of the same group, or do they represent 3 different groups?

No. I see them as the surviving fragments of a fallen Rome grouped into smaller sovereign countries, which in the later times resurfaces in what may be likened to a revived Roman Empire: which some would say is the European Union. I, however, believe such will be more of a spiritual union than natural, and one which will include some Middle East countries which would cause them to be distinct from just the EU.

 

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

3. Do you find they are 10 coming in the future- still yet to come, during a post- Daniel time, during a post-Messiah time, or during a post- Little horn time (this assumes the little horn is the papacy that began around 500 AD?

I do not see either little horn as the papacy.

I believe the first is Antiochus Epiphanes, and second, possibly a prophetic pointing to the birthing of the eighth and last great empire, America.

 

However, I think you ought to start a new thread so we do not become guilty of high jacking this one. Just message me with a link....

 

 

Edited June 27, 2024 by BlindSeeker

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, BlindSeeker said:

 Well then, that seems like a most logical place for you begin you presentation, and if it be sound and true, may the Lord grant me grace to discern it as such.

 

Perhaps then you can explain then why the ten horns are introduced following the decline of Greece with to rising of the Roman Empire, since their appearance in prophecy arrives upon the coming fourth beast’s head.

Also, what is it that has persuaded you that the “little horn,” which Daniel says arises from these ten, is the same little horn which comes from one of the four providences under the control Alexander’s surviving generals.

 

No. I see them as the surviving fragments of a fallen Rome grouped into smaller sovereign countries, which in the later times resurfaces in what may be likened to a revived Roman Empire: which some would say is the European Union. I, however, believe such will be more of a spiritual union than natural, and one which will include some Middle East countries which would cause them to be distinct from just the EU.

 

I do not see either little horn as the papacy.

I believe the first is Antiochus Epiphanes, and second, possibly a prophetic pointing to the birthing of the eighth and last great empire, America.

 

However, I think you ought to start a new thread so we do not become guilty of high jacking this one. Just message me with a link....

 

 

Very well... I will start one on the 10 toes / 10 horns / 10 kings... thanks so much, Charlie

[DeighAnn]

On 6/23/2024 at 12:33 PM, Charlie744 said:

I don’t know why you believe this. Why can’t the temple be destroyed outside of the last week?

Hi Charlie, 

70 weeks 

determined upon the people and the city

not upon Jesus, not upon Christ.  

He is put forth but only as the 'marker' for the events.  

No where is it written they are consecutive, that is an assumption. 

That they are not, is more likely because of how it is written with the AFTER the weeks...



First problem I see is 'Who' are Daniels people?  The PRAYER is clear...  

Israel.  Children of the promise.  Seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel.  If you are Christs then you are Abrahams seed coming from the One kingdom divided into two.  One to bring forth the Messiah, the other to be scattered to the world, sifted in amongst the heathen, no longer knowing who they are or where they came from, aka lost sheep, the lost sheep of the House of Israel, (not the House of Judah as they have ALWAYS known who they are, even to this day) those Jesus came for. 

US.  Christians.  The Church/body of Christ of today.  All continues on UNTIL the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled aka till all who are coming to Christ have.  That hasn't happened.  SO the last week CAN'T have happened as it is 'determined upon ISRAEL.  Not the land, not the nation, but the PEOPLE.  The Messiah came for ALL, not just the House of Judah.  The House of Israel had been scattered to the world hundreds of years BEFORE Jesus was born.  We don't get to disregard them as God made a promise and swore so it still must be true. 


Read it as it is written.  Who is the PRAYER concerning?  Did Daniel mention the Messiah?  No.  That is why 'the Messiah' ISN'T part of the 70...take it like it is written

AS AFTER those weeks and you will see that is when the Messiah is cut off

and the people of the one who is coming, the UN saved, destroy the temple, which also falls after


24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

Not the Messiah

to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


transgression hasn't finished for all of Israel and the city
there has been no end of sins for all of Israel and the city
there has not been a reconciliation made for iniquity for all of Israel and city
there is not any everlasting righteousness for all of Israel and the city
so the vision has not been sealed up, the prophecy has not ended







25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem

all the years to build the temple and get it ready for the Messiah





unto

the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.



Remember this is GIVEN to us by an angel


26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:


SO AFTER that time is fulfilled, Messiah has come and been announced and rejected ONLY THEN is He cut off



Still AFTER



and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;







and the end thereof

that would be the end of the prophecy, or the last week of it will be






shall be with a flood,



and unto the end of the war


desolations are determined.


27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

Remember 2 Thess 3
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?



and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,


THE LORD isn't going to cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease, it is the WORSHIPPING of another that causes that,


and it is NOT the Lord who will be the cause of


and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,



even until the consummation,


and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

THAT DETERMINED to be poured out upon the desolate are the VIALS of Gods wrath upon those who have taken the mark of the beast.  



None of that has happened.  Satan and his angels have not been cast to earth.  

Matt 24, Mark 13, Rev, both Thess, Major and Minor prophets all say the exact same thing. God tells us over and over and over the same thing from all different ways of looking at it.