Baptism but not all the way...

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Cntrysner said:

Water baptism was under the “letter of the law” and if one partakes of it they are bound to the whole law. John’s mode of baptism was not questioned by the priests and Levites and they understood it was a priestly purification ritual to enter the coming kingdom as priest. Christ gave His life’s blood to remove us from the law. Water baptism is nothing to the Body of Christ who have been baptized by the Spirit.

I think that you should post the Laws you allude to. It would help mightily to clear this matter up. I don't doubt your sincerity and motives, but full Immersion is not, to my knowledge, part of the Law. Baptism is a burying. John's message was not "be a Priest". Nor was Christ's. His message is that the economies up to then, that is, God's dealings with men, had produced no fruit, and rather than increase rituals and regulation, Israel were to "turn from the old" (the meaning of "repent). Baptism, in every case, is a burying of the old and surfacing to a new and living way. It is easy to check. Our Lord Jesus insisted on Immersion to fulfill all righteousness. Was He defiled in any way? Was He not a High Priest already (seeing as He belonged to an order "without beginning and end of days")?

No. Jesus needed no washing. But His humanity was from Mary - a member of Adam's race. Romans 5 makes clear that the sin-nature is transmitted by the man, so our Lord was free from the Adamic nature. But He had partaken of flesh and blood of that line. Israel too, were men of Adam's line and it was this line that needed to be ended. The Law was good, spiritual and God-given. But it was weak, not in itself, but because of man's flesh. It was this flesh that needed to be terminated (1st Cor.15:50). So Christ goes to His death where the whole flesh is cut off. But He is introduced at Baptism, NOT as the Trespass-Offering for the sins (plural) of the world, but as the "SIN" (singular) Offering. John says; "behold .... who takes away the SIN (singular) of the world".

Thus, Baptism is a "burying" of the old creature, and the emergence from the "death waters" is the raising of the new creature. To preserve men for His Church and His testimony, Jesus completes the reality of death and resurrection, and we only have to do it a a "sign". You will notice in Romans 6 that if you are not Baptized you cannot be raised like Christ. Jesus does the work for every Believer, and so "we are complete IN Him". But we have to identify with His work so we are immersed by another believer, in symbolic death waters, completely, in the name of Jesus, AFTER faith in Jesus. The Immersed one must be fully identified with the Person, Rank, Work and Way of Jesus but without actually dying.

Our position as Priest is gained, not at a ritual washing, but by (re)BIRTH, like Aaron's sons. When we are born again we inherit the Priesthood. We also are in line to be a king - so we are a "ROYAL Priesthood". But like Aaron's sons, the priesthood can be removed, as can our kingship. These are matters of INHERITANCE and an eligible man can easily be excluded from the will for misbehavior - as scripture warns. Our BIRTH cannot be overturned, but our INHERITANCE can be removed (1st Cor.6:9-10, Gal.5:21, Eph.5:5 etc). The slothful servant remains a servant but is cast from the presence of the Master for evil WORKS. It is noteworthy that the very first qualification for ENTERING the Kingdom is the OBEDIENCE of Baptism (Jn.3:5). The grand type is Moses. He is BORN into God's People, crosses the Red Sea, builds God's House and serves diligently. But in a certain WORK he brings God's holiness into disrepute and may only SEE the Kingdom but not ENTER it.

It is true that Aaron must undergo extensive washing and special clothing for his once-a-year visit to the Holy of Holies, but this is accomplished because of the flesh. In John 13 we are taught that Christ has made us every wit clean except the feet - that part of us that deals with the world we live in. Since there is only ONE Baptism, it is immediately clear that we would be continuously dirty if Baptism was a washing. Washing is necessary, but by the water of the WORD (Eph.5:26).

I don't expect you to see and/or agree immediately, but I hope that our exchange can prove profitable in the future. Also - a book is needed to adequately deal with this matter. This posting omits much information.

[Cntrysner]

21 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I think that you should post the Laws you allude to. It would help mightily to clear this matter up.

Jesus was water baptized at the required age of 30 (Luk 3:23) to become high priest (Heb 2:17) to the nation of Israel who were to be a kingdom of priest ( Ex 19:6, 1Pet 2:9-12, Exo 29:4) thus qualifying Him to make His sacrificial offering for sin. There is no indication he was water baptized prior for any other reason. His baptism was certainly not a believers baptism for expressing one’s faith or for remission of sins. Those who say.. I just what to be obedient to Jesus in water baptism have no idea why Christ was water baptized.

The Baptist gave us the reason he came baptizing with water…..

Joh 1:31  And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

The Baptist knew the meaning of priestly ritual baptism being born into the levitical order under Mosaic law (Luk 1:5-17). The Jews with out question understood the ritual laws of immersion as evidenced by the many Mikvahs  just outside the temple grounds. The law, levitical order, with the ordinances 
of temple worship were instilled in them from birth and governed their every day lives.
 

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, Cntrysner said:

Jesus was water baptized at the required age of 30 (Luk 3:23) to become high priest (Heb 2:17) to the nation of Israel who were to be a kingdom of priest ( Ex 19:6, 1Pet 2:9-12, Exo 29:4) thus qualifying Him to make His sacrificial offering for sin. There is no indication he was water baptized prior for any other reason. His baptism was certainly not a believers baptism for expressing one’s faith or for remission of sins. Those who say.. I just what to be obedient to Jesus in water baptism have no idea why Christ was water baptized.

The Baptist gave us the reason he came baptizing with water…..

Joh 1:31  And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

The Baptist knew the meaning of priestly ritual baptism being born into the levitical order under Mosaic law (Luk 1:5-17). The Jews with out question understood the ritual laws of immersion as evidenced by the many Mikvahs  just outside the temple grounds. The law, levitical order, with the ordinances 
of temple worship were instilled in them from birth and governed their every day lives.
 

Not so my brother. The Priesthood of Israel is established with Levi, and the Office of High Priest with the family of Aaron - a Levite. It is established by "everlasting Priesthood and Covenant (Ex.40:12-14, Nu.25:13). Not only is this fixed in Law, but to change it would defy our Lord's words that not one jot or tittle would be changed "till heaven and earth pass ...". Jesus was a Judaean. He may never be Priest to Israel.**

Rather, He is High Priest to OUR profession - Christianity - those of the heavenly calling!

2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. 3.1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of OUR profession, Christ Jesus; (Heb.2:16 - 3:1).

** The grammar is clear. No change will be made to existing Law. Jesus cannot be Priest according to Levi for (i) He is a Judeaen, (ii) He is already of the order of Melchisedek. (iii) God's Word is unchangeable, (iv) it is part of a Contract, and (iv) to do so would replace an eternal Priesthood with a carnal Priesthood .

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. 17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec (Heb.7:11–17).

Think about it.

[Cntrysner]

23 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Not so my brother. The Priesthood of Israel is established with Levi, and the Office of High Priest with the family of Aaron - a Levite. It is established by "everlasting Priesthood and Covenant (Ex.40:12-14, Nu.25:13). Not only is this fixed in Law, but to change it would defy our Lord's words that not one jot or tittle would be changed "till heaven and earth pass ...". Jesus was a Judaean. He may never be Priest to Israel.**

Rather, He is High Priest to OUR profession - Christianity - those of the heavenly calling!

2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. 3.1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of OUR profession, Christ Jesus; (Heb.2:16 - 3:1).

** The grammar is clear. No change will be made to existing Law. Jesus cannot be Priest according to Levi for (i) He is a Judeaen, (ii) He is already of the order of Melchisedek. (iii) God's Word is unchangeable, (iv) it is part of a Contract, and (iv) to do so would replace an eternal Priesthood with a carnal Priesthood .

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. 17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec (Heb.7:11–17).

Think about it.

You need to realize you are not a Jew or a member of that chosen generation and royal priesthood, until then you will ever be confused and continue to mind earthly things with an earthly kingdom and your flesh will always be at war with spiritual things. The Pentecostal experience was Jewish with old testament law and promises and you  can’t use the shadows of old testament scripture to define the spiritual truths of new testament scripture, look for when the new testimony replaced the old and you will fined it progressively revealed and understood, realize that the new testament is not a series of books.  The Body of Christ is a Spiritual oneness in Him not a nation of individuals striving to be acceptable to God by righteous works of the flesh.

You can’t discern, because of your flesh, why circumcision still applies to believers today so you say water baptism replaced it which it definitely did not. Circumcision of the flesh by man to man was a type of the circumcision of Christ by the Spirit to the spirit of man as also water baptism by man to man was a type of Spirit baptism by the Spirit to the spirit of man. These spiritual things and operations of God were progressively revealed in scripture and are only spiritually discerned thus it requires death of the old man and his old ways and by accepting Christ and His works not our own, all things pertaining to righteousness will be freely given and we become by God’s hand a new creature, without works, with better promises.

Works and grace oppose each other as do the flesh and the spirit.

I commend you for your diligent striving to put all the pieces together to support your belief and I pray that you will come to the knowledge of the truth in Christ.   
 

[AdHoc]

9 hours ago, Cntrysner said:

You need to realize you are not a Jew or a member of that chosen generation and royal priesthood, until then you will ever be confused and continue to mind earthly things with an earthly kingdom and your flesh will always be at war with spiritual things. The Pentecostal experience was Jewish with old testament law and promises and you  can’t use the shadows of old testament scripture to define the spiritual truths of new testament scripture, look for when the new testimony replaced the old and you will fined it progressively revealed and understood, realize that the new testament is not a series of books.  The Body of Christ is a Spiritual oneness in Him not a nation of individuals striving to be acceptable to God by righteous works of the flesh.

You can’t discern, because of your flesh, why circumcision still applies to believers today so you say water baptism replaced it which it definitely did not. Circumcision of the flesh by man to man was a type of the circumcision of Christ by the Spirit to the spirit of man as also water baptism by man to man was a type of Spirit baptism by the Spirit to the spirit of man. These spiritual things and operations of God were progressively revealed in scripture and are only spiritually discerned thus it requires death of the old man and his old ways and by accepting Christ and His works not our own, all things pertaining to righteousness will be freely given and we become by God’s hand a new creature, without works, with better promises.

Works and grace oppose each other as do the flesh and the spirit.

I commend you for your diligent striving to put all the pieces together to support your belief and I pray that you will come to the knowledge of the truth in Christ.   
 

Thank you for your reply. I've read and noted it.

God's richest blessings to you.

[Cntrysner]

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you for your reply. I've read and noted it.

God's richest blessings to you.

You did not waste your time here Adhoc. I am very busy this time of year and I will study what you have shared with me and get back to you.   Thank you very much, sincerely.

[AdHoc]

On 6/23/2024 at 1:01 PM, Cntrysner said:

You did not waste your time here Adhoc. I am very busy this time of year and I will study what you have shared with me and get back to you.   Thank you very much, sincerely.

No debate among brothers is wasted. Others listen in and judge. I appreciated your view. I just didn't have anything to add.

Take care and don't work too hard