Begotten Son or Eternal Son?

[Your closest friendnt]

9 minutes ago, Tristen said:

Yep - that's what I figured.

And they don't necessarily contradict. Therefore, both can be true at the same time.

When he was still forming in his mother, was he eternal or not?

[Tristen]

2 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

When he was still forming in his mother, was he eternal or not?

Yes - when Jesus' physical body was forming, Jesus remained "eternal". 

The term "eternal" is absolutist - which, by definition, means Jesus' existence cannot be restricted by any physical boundary. The existence and formation of Jesus' human body does not logically compromise His "eternal" status.

 

PS. Apologies if I'm repeating the arguments of others. I haven't had a chance to read through the thread yet.

 

[First and the Last]

God was manifest in the flesh through Jesus Christ, but at what point in His life did God indwell the Son? The Bible unequivocally declares that the fullness of God was in Jesus from the moment when Jesus’ human life began.

1. Matthew 1:23 says, “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.” He was “God with us” even at His birth.
2. The angels worshiped Him at His birth (Hebrews 1:6), Simeon recognized the infant as the Christ (Luke 2:26), Anna saw the babe as the redeemer of Israel (Luke 2:38), and the wise men worshiped the young child (Matthew 2:11).
3. Micah 5:2 ascribed deity to the Messiah at His birth in Bethlehem, not just after His life in Nazareth or His baptism in Jordan.
4. Luke 1:35 explains why Jesus was God at the beginning of His human life. The angel told Mary, “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” Jesus was born of a virgin, His conception being affected by the Holy Ghost. Because of this (“therefore”), He was the Son of God. In other words, Jesus is the Son of God because God, and not a man, caused His conception. God was literally His Father. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son” (John 3:16). To beget means to father, sire, procreate, or cause. Jesus was begotten by God in the womb of the virgin Mary.

Isaiah 7:14 also links the virgin conception with the recognition that the Son thus born would be God. In other words, at the moment of conception, God placed His divine nature in the seed of the woman. The child to be born received its life and the fatherly side of its nature from God at this time. From the mother’s side it received the human nature of Mary; from the father’s side (God, not Joseph) it received the nature of God. Jesus obtained His deity through the conception process; He did not become divine by some later act of God. The virgin birth of Jesus establishes His deity.

Some believe that Jesus received the fullness of God at some later time in His life, such as at His baptism. However, in light of the virgin birth and Luke 1:35 this cannot be so. Jesus received His nature of deity as well as the nature of humanity at conception. The descent of the Holy Ghost like a dove at the baptism of Jesus was not a baptism of the Holy Ghost; Jesus already had all the fullness of God within Him (Colossians 2:9). Rather, His baptism, among other things, occurred as a symbolic anointing for the beginning of His earthly ministry and as a confirmation to John the Baptist of His deity (John 1:32-34).

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Tristen said:

Yes - when Jesus' physical body was forming, Jesus remained "eternal". 

The term "eternal" is absolutist - which, by definition, means Jesus' existence cannot be restricted by any physical boundary. The existence and formation of Jesus' human body does not logically compromise His "eternal" status.

 

PS. Apologies if I'm repeating the arguments of others. I haven't had a chance to read through the thread yet.

 

This is the reason why I did like it because when we had the Logos we did not have the Creator yet, because he had not create anything yet but we had the creator to be. The one God had appointed to be the creator. 

We had the one who was appointed to speak to Noah and later to Abraham.

We have the one who brought the flood and promised not to that again and he destroyed the Gomora and Sodoma by fire. He kept his word. Who made a Covenant with Abraham and Issac and Jacob.  

We have the one who he knew that the time will come that he will leave everything that he had. The disciples said empty himself of everything thing to take the form of a man. He said because of my obedience all the way to the Cross God the Heavenly Father will glorify him and give me all the glory I had before but not as a man but as the Creator of all. 

Edited June 22, 2024 by Your closest friendnt

[warrior12]

When I first started to be troubled by and assaulted by things unkown to me and thought never existed, I started to read a bible that my uncle had in my place. It was the New Jerusalem Bible of 1966, which I now understand is a catholic Bible.  

I started to read it and felt that I could understand the transalation better than others in hindsight now.   It has some extra books one of which is as below, and this chapter , I use to read over and over as it comforted me and one particular verse as I would highlight.   

One thing, please do not speak of God in the manner you do, it is giving he devil more strongholds over your tired mind.  Instead, you still have to praise the Lord for who he is and rebuke the devil for planting seeds of oppression and the rest.   Time would heal your wound, but gold is tested in the fire of humiliation.   You have to be an overcommer and it takes patience and determination, especially to live and see your kids grow up to be decent God fearing people.

Ecclesiasticus, 2

1.My child, if you aspire to serve the Lord, prepare yourself for an ordeal.

2.Be sincere of heart, be steadfast, and do not be alarmed when disaster comes.

3.Cling to him and do not leave him, so that you may be honoured at the end of your days.

4.Whatever happens to you, accept it, and in the uncertainties of your humble state, be patient,

5.since gold is tested in the fire, and the chosen in the furnace of humiliation.

 

6.Trust him and he will uphold you, follow a straight path and hope in him.

7.You who fear the Lord, wait for his mercy; do not turn aside, for fear you fall.

8.You who fear the Lord, trust him, and you will not be robbed of your reward.

9.You who fear the Lord, hope for those good gifts of his, everlasting joy and mercy.

10.Look at the generations of old and see: whoever trusted in the Lord and was put to shame? Or whoever, steadfastly fearing him, was forsaken? Or whoever called to him and was ignored?

11.For the Lord is compassionate and merciful, he forgives sins and saves in the time of distress.

12.Woe to faint hearts and listless hands, and to the sinner who treads two paths.

13.Woe to the listless heart that has no faith, for such will have no protection.

14.Woe to you who have lost the strength to endure; what will you do at the Lord's visitation?

15.Those who fear the Lord do not disdain his words, and those who love him keep his ways.

16.Those who fear the Lord do their best to please him, and those who love him will find satisfaction in the Law.

17.Those who fear the Lord keep their hearts prepared and humble themselves in his presence.

18.Let us fall into the hands of the Lord, not into any human clutches; for as his majesty is, so too is his mercy.

[Your closest friendnt]

@First and the Last

With due respect. 

When did Jesus received the fullness of God? 

Does the word "received" denotes that it was a time when he did not have the fullness of God? 

And what is the fullness of God? 

Did Jesus said anything about that? 

 

Edited June 22, 2024 by Your closest friendnt

[farouk]

7 hours ago, Tristen said:

Yes - when Jesus' physical body was forming, Jesus remained "eternal". 

The term "eternal" is absolutist - which, by definition, means Jesus' existence cannot be restricted by any physical boundary. The existence and formation of Jesus' human body does not logically compromise His "eternal" status.

 

PS. Apologies if I'm repeating the arguments of others. I haven't had a chance to read through the thread yet.

 

Hi @Tristen The hypostatic union of the two Divine and human natures in Christ is a deep mystery that is indeed revealed in Scripture.

1 Timothy 3.16: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

John 1.14: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

 

"Veiled in flesh the Godhead see,
  Hail th’ incarnate Deity!
Pleased as man with man to dwell,
  Jesus our Immanuel."

[farouk]

8 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

When he was still forming in his mother, was he eternal or not?

Hebrews 1 says, 'But unto the Son He saith, Thy Throne, O God, is for ever and ever'.

John 1 says: 'The same was in the beginning with God'.

[Charlie1988]

On 6/19/2024 at 6:16 AM, First and the Last said:

What do you guys think?

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Almighty Jehovah God, Creator of everything that exists. So He never had a beginning, because He is God. 

The fact that He was begotten must be referring to his earthly incarnation. God took on flesh and came into the world as an ordinary baby but He remained fully God and fully man at all times. 

He is currently sitting at His Fathers right hand, in the same form as He was when He ascended to heaven 2000 years ago. He still has the wounds in his hands and feet and his side. 

We have trouble getting our minds around the Godhead as they exist as the Holy Trinity, Three Persons but One Godhead. God is a mystery, we will never fully know Him or understand how or why He does what he does.  

[Mr. M]

22 minutes ago, Charlie1988 said:

The fact that He was begotten must be referring to his earthly incarnation.

The Logos

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

John 1:

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 

7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light,

that all through him might believe. 

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness

of that Light. 

9 That was the true Light which gives

light to every man coming into the world.

Colossians 1:

15 He is the image of the invisible God, 

the firstborn over all creation. 

16 For by Him all things were created

that are in heaven and that are on earth,

visible and invisible, whether thrones or 

dominions or principalities or powers.

All things were created through Him

and for Him. 

17 And He is before all things,

and in Him all things consist.

John 8:12 Then Jesus spoke to them again,

saying, “I am the light of the world.

He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness,

but have the light of life.”

John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, 

I am the light of the world.

John 12:

44 Then Jesus cried out and said, 

“He who believes in Me, believes not in Me 

but in Him who sent Me. 

45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. 

46 I have come as a light into the world,

that whoever believes in Me should not

abide in darkness.

1 John 1:5 This is the message which we

have heard from Him and declare to you,

that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 

God is Light...

His Voice is Light...

His Word is Light...

The Son of God is the Light...

The only begotten...

Made from the pure substance

of God's Spirit/Voice/Breathe...

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure

in earthen vessels, that the excellence

of the power may be of God and not of us.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt

among us, and we beheld His glory,

the glory as of the only begotten

of the Father, full of grace and truth.