Begotten Son or Eternal Son?

[Mr. M]

4 minutes ago, Charlie1988 said:

The first born of all creation has two natures. He is fully God and fully man at the same time.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator

between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.

All things were made by the Logos, after God spoke

the Light into existence. Genesis 1:3

only begotten=made from the exact substance

of God, Spirit/Breathe of God.

First God created everything, then came the

manifestation by the Light. 

You quoted my complete logo-ical

presentation, with a testimony of more 

than 2 or 3 witnesses.

3 hours ago, Charlie1988 said:

The Logos

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be Light:

and there was Light.

John 1:

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 

7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light,

that all through him might believe. 

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness

of that Light. 

9 That was the true Light which gives

light to every man coming into the world.

Colossians 1:

15 He is the image of the invisible God, 

the firstborn over all creation. 

16 For by Him all things were made

that are in heaven and that are on earth,

visible and invisible, whether thrones or 

dominions or principalities or powers.

All things were made through Him

and for Him. 

17 And He is before all things,

and in Him all things consist.

John 8:12 Then Jesus spoke to them again,

saying, “I am the light of the world.

He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness,

but have the Light of Life.”

John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, 

I am the Light of the World.

John 12:

44 Then Jesus cried out and said, 

“He who believes in Me, believes not in Me 

but in Him who sent Me. 

45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. 

46 I have come as a Light into the world,

that whoever believes in Me should not

abide in darkness.

1 John 1:5 This is the message which we

have heard from Him and declare to you,

that God is Light and in Him is no darkness at all. 

God is Light...

His Voice is Light...

His Word is Light...

The Son of God is the Light...

The only begotten...

Made from the pure substance

of God's Spirit/Voice/Breathe...

Luke 11:

34 The lamp of the body is the eye.

Therefore, when your eye is good,

your whole body also is full of light.

But when your eye is bad,

your body also is full of darkness. 

35 Therefore take heed that the light

which is in you is not darkness. 

36 If then your whole body is full of light,

having no part dark, the whole body 

will be full of light, as when the bright

shining of a lamp gives you light.”

Matthew 6:23 But if your eye is]bad,

your whole body will be full of darkness.

If therefore the light that is in you is darkness,

how great is that darkness!

[Your closest friendnt]

1 minute ago, Charlie1988 said:

The first born of all creation has two natures. He is fully God and fully man at the same time. There's no point in trying to get our minds around that mysterious truth, we simply cannot fathom the depths of what that means. 

The first begotten from the Father was the Logos. That's what the disciple called him because he will create everything by his word. Later He was called the Creator. After the creation we can call him the Creator. Before we can call him the Logos the Creator to be. 

Later we called him the God of Adam and the God of Noah and the God of Abraham. God Almighty. Later with Moses when he began to lead his people he was called the Lord God Almighty of Israel. 

Faraoh said to Moses who is that, who is the Lord because the people did not know him. Because that was the time that he began to take care of his people his Nation Israel. He was only the God of Israel. He could not be the God of anyone else. So we can not call him our God. He had to come as Jesus the Messiah, the Christ to be. And after his death on the Cross when he died for the forgiveness of the sins of the whole world he could be Lord and our God because we are partakers of his redemption and his Life his eternal life. The Heavenly Father has Given us Jesus Christ to be our Lord and our God. By having forgiveness of sins in his name and when we believe in Jesus Christ we also are accepted by the Heavenly Father in Jesus Christ. God has given him everything he had.

Jesus said all God has is mine because all God has he has given them to me. 

[Charlie1988]

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

The first begotten from the Father was the Logos. That's what the disciple called him because he will create everything by his word. Later He was called the Creator. After the creation we can call him the Creator. Before we can call him the Logos the Creator to be. 

Later we called him the God of Adam and the God of Noah and the God of Abraham. God Almighty. Later with Moses when he began to lead his people he was called the Lord God Almighty of Israel. 

Faraoh said to Moses who is that, who is the Lord because the people did not know him. Because that was the time that he began to take care of his people his Nation Israel. He was only the God of Israel. He could not be the God of anyone else. So we can not call him our God. He had to come as Jesus the Messiah, the Christ to be. And after his death on the Cross when he died for the forgiveness of the sins of the whole world he could be Lord and our God because we are partakers of his redemption and his Life his eternal life. The Heavenly Father has Given us Jesus Christ to be our Lord and our God. By having forgiveness of sins in his name and when we believe in Jesus Christ we also are accepted by the Heavenly Father in Jesus Christ. God has given him everything he had.

Jesus said all God has is mine because all God has he has given them to me. 

I've never heard any of that before, it's all very different to the way I understand it. 

First of all Jesus has been the Almighty Jehovah God, from all eternity. His Title never changed, there were additions to His profile if I can put it that way. But those additions didn't change anything about who He always was and is. 

The Chosen people of the Bible are not national Israel, they are spiritual Israel which includes people from ever country in the world. So when the Bible mentions "Chosen people" it means Chinese, Arabs, Negros, Indians and every other ethnic group.

The people under the old covenant were saved exactly the same way we are today. All of Gods Chosen people have to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, to be saved. The only difference is the Israel of old looked forward to Christ and we look back but every single saved person from every age from the begging of time has to be saved by Jesus.

So there is no such thing as Jew or Gentile, man or woman or old covenant. Everyone is saved exactly the same way by the same Lord Jesus. The Bible makes it very clear that, Jesus came to put an end to the old covenant with all of it's sacrifices and burnt offerings. So He put an end Judaism and ordained that the Jewish Temple be destroyed and the Jews to be scattered all over the world. 

All born again Christians are the chosen people, we are the Israel of God. The Jews don't exist, because you can't have Judaism without a Temple and all of their rituals and sacrifices. The so called Jews of today, are planning to rebuild the Temple to give them legitimacy but that will never happen, because God destroyed it to put an end to the sacrificial system.        

[farouk]

8 minutes ago, Charlie1988 said:

I've never heard any of that before, it's all very different to the way I understand it. 

First of all Jesus has been the Almighty Jehovah God, from all eternity. His Title never changed, there were additions to His profile if I can put it that way. But those additions didn't change anything about who He always was and is. 

The Chosen people of the Bible are not national Israel, they are spiritual Israel which includes people from ever country in the world. So when the Bible mentions "Chosen people" it means Chinese, Arabs, Negros, Indians and every other ethnic group.

The people under the old covenant were saved exactly the same way we are today. All of Gods Chosen people have to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, to be saved. The only difference is the Israel of old looked forward to Christ and we look back but every single saved person from every age from the begging of time has to be saved by Jesus.

So there is no such thing as Jew or Gentile, man or woman or old covenant. Everyone is saved exactly the same way by the same Lord Jesus. The Bible makes it very clear that, Jesus came to put an end to the old covenant with all of it's sacrifices and burnt offerings. So He put an end Judaism and ordained that the Jewish Temple be destroyed and the Jews to be scattered all over the world. 

All born again Christians are the chosen people, we are the Israel of God. The Jews don't exist, because you can't have Judaism without a Temple and all of their rituals and sacrifices. The so called Jews of today, are planning to rebuild the Temple to give them legitimacy but that will never happen, because God destroyed it to put an end to the sacrificial system.        

I strongly agree about the eternal Sonship of Christ being Scriptural.

Paul in 1 Corinthians 10.32 does speak of three distinct groups of ppl: Jews, Gentiles and the church of God.

[Mr. M]

10 minutes ago, Charlie1988 said:

The Jews don't exist, because you can't have Judaism without a Temple and all of their rituals and sacrifices.

Judaism began with the Tabernacle in the wilderness

and the Ark of the Testimony.

David first proposed building a Temple.

2 Samuel 7:

1 Now it came to pass when the king was dwelling in his house, and the Lord had given him rest from all his enemies all around, 

2 that the king said to Nathan the prophet, “See now, I dwell in a house of cedar, but the ark of God dwells inside tent curtains.”

3 Then Nathan said to the king, “Go, do all that is in your heart, for the Lord is with you.”

4 But it happened that night that the word of the Lord came to Nathan, saying, 

5 “Go and tell My servant David, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Would you build a house for Me to dwell in? 

6 For I have not dwelt in a house since the time that I brought the children of Israel up from Egypt, even to this day, but have moved about in a tent and in a tabernacle. 

7 Wherever I have moved about with all the children of Israel, have I ever spoken a word to anyone from the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people Israel, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’ ” ’ 

8 Now therefore, thus shall you say to My servant David, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts: “I took you from the sheepfold, from following the sheep, to be ruler over My people, over Israel. 

9 And I have been with you wherever you have gone, and have cut off all your enemies from before you, and have made you a great name, like the name of the great men who are on the earth. 

10 Moreover I will appoint a place for My people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own and move no more; nor shall the sons of wickedness oppress them anymore, as previously, 

11 since the time that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel, and have caused you to rest from all your enemies. Also the Lord tells you that He will make you a house.

12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 

13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 

14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. 

15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 

This is the sure mercies of David,

the promise which establishes the line of David as Messianic.

16 And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.” ’ ”

17 According to all these words and according to all this vision, so Nathan spoke to David.

David wanted to build the Lord a house. We are now that House.

Hebrews 3:

4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 

5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 

6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

[Mr. M]

11 minutes ago, farouk said:

I strongly agree about the eternal Sonship of Christ being Scriptural.

What are those scriptures?

Luke 22:37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end.

1 Corinthians 15:

24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 

27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 

28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all, in all.

In Revelation, He is "the Lamb".

https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=the+Lamb&t=KJV#s=s_primary_66_1

[farouk]

1 minute ago, Mr. M said:

What are those scriptures?

Luke 22:37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end.

1 Corinthians 15:

24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 

27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 

28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all, in all.

In Revelation, He is "the Lamb".

https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=the+Lamb&t=KJV#s=s_primary_66_1

Hebrews 1 says, 'But unto the Son He saith, Thy Throne, O God, is for ever and ever'.

John 1 says: 'The same was in the beginning with God'.

[warrior12]

Here where I see a great divide that is difficult to reconcile as to doctrine.   The entire pentecostal churh and assemble consist of quite a number of adherents that has based their theology on a gift that is biblical mentioned in scripture, but is seen by other church as false and the two cannot mix so to speak in common worship. Just to mention, I am just pointing out what I know from visiting the different churches over the years and how people see one another as a claim to the member of the body of Christ. 

I don't see why people can't have their own space if they so choose as they see the doctrine of the bible in their teachings and interpretation.  The oneness as I see it, can come with dialogue in good faith without animosity and hatred, but go with the common saying "agree to disagree" mantra.   

The thing is, we are also dealing with the flesh  and the spiritual world. Is it not an easy thing to control the flesh nature,  as we can see from the wars and turmoil present and history.  

Some people has strict rules that shoes are not to be worn in the house, while others don't mind,  some can tolerate loud music, some can't, so some church folks in different regions and geography has the same natural desires that their culture if I can use that word like to worship in.

At the end of the day, is holding steadfast to the truth as you have come in your spirit to accept as the truth, truthfully.  Do we not think that God know our heart.  So the satisfaction that I worship in truth and in spirit is the utmost importance to me.   The rest we can have dialouge and as if or when  our theology changes , we make the changes and look towards our heavenly rewards.  

Tell me, whose theology is the correct one.  Answer that and we have the perfect union, which we know is impossible. So we live with what we have and as long hate is not in our mindset, we good to go.  Love is then the alternative, which then as a simple definition which is so popular. God is love and seek that direction in truth. Amen.

John 4

²⁴ God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Edited June 23, 2024 by warrior12

[Charlie1988]

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

Judaism began with the Tabernacle in the wilderness

and the Ark of the Testimony.

David first proposed building a Temple.

2 Samuel 7:

1 Now it came to pass when the king was dwelling in his house, and the Lord had given him rest from all his enemies all around, 

2 that the king said to Nathan the prophet, “See now, I dwell in a house of cedar, but the ark of God dwells inside tent curtains.”

3 Then Nathan said to the king, “Go, do all that is in your heart, for the Lord is with you.”

4 But it happened that night that the word of the Lord came to Nathan, saying, 

5 “Go and tell My servant David, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Would you build a house for Me to dwell in? 

6 For I have not dwelt in a house since the time that I brought the children of Israel up from Egypt, even to this day, but have moved about in a tent and in a tabernacle. 

7 Wherever I have moved about with all the children of Israel, have I ever spoken a word to anyone from the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people Israel, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’ ” ’ 

8 Now therefore, thus shall you say to My servant David, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts: “I took you from the sheepfold, from following the sheep, to be ruler over My people, over Israel. 

9 And I have been with you wherever you have gone, and have cut off all your enemies from before you, and have made you a great name, like the name of the great men who are on the earth. 

10 Moreover I will appoint a place for My people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own and move no more; nor shall the sons of wickedness oppress them anymore, as previously, 

11 since the time that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel, and have caused you to rest from all your enemies. Also the Lord tells you that He will make you a house.

12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 

13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 

14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. 

15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 

This is the sure mercies of David,

the promise which establishes the line of David as Messianic.

16 And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.” ’ ”

17 According to all these words and according to all this vision, so Nathan spoke to David.

David wanted to build the Lord a house. We are now that House.

Hebrews 3:

4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 

5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 

6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

Jesus said He is the Temple of God, all of Gods chosen people from the past to the present and future are in Christ. The old covenant was replaced by the new, but the Temple now consists of people from every ethnic group and every age.

There is no Jew or Gentile, in Gods Temple.  

[Mr. M]

41 minutes ago, farouk said:

Hebrews 1 says, 'But unto the Son He saith, Thy Throne, O God, is for ever and ever'.

aion aion is a tricky expression.

43 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 

Jesus has been seated at the right hand of power since His ascension. His reign has been uninterrupted, in spite of what we can or cannot see.

Hebrews 2:8  Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

49 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 

No more death. No more time. No more aions.

Revelation 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

Luke 22:37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end.

 

1 hour ago, farouk said:

John 1 says: 'The same was in the beginning with God'.

3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made, 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

the only begotten and firstborn here,

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

when God began to speak what He had created.

Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

God created everything before the foundation of the world.

The manifestation came after, through the Logos.

17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.