I can do whatever and there is No Condemnation in Christ!

[Marathoner]

28 minutes ago, Cntrysner said:

All this, stronger faith, stronger Christian, and to feel the presence of the Lord came via water baptism? It seems your faith relies on the efficacy of water baptism which is much more than just a declaration of faith or a symbolic act of salvation already received. Do you see how it can rob Christ of His glory because all these things are only possible through Christ. I have found that those who believe their obedience or what they feel is a righteous work is required for salvation, also believe that one can lose their salvation which is not true for a born again son of God. It is God that seals us and keeps us, we are bought with a price and not our own.  

This is what we must be wary of doing: casting doubt or derision upon the testimony of others. I accept our brother's word regarding his experience in the Lord and do not question it at all; the validity of his experience is between him and the Lord. I am not his judge and neither are you, my friend.

Never forget that the measure we use to judge shall be returned to us by the Almighty Himself. 

[Cntrysner]

29 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

This is what we must be wary of doing: casting doubt or derision upon the testimony of others. I accept our brother's word regarding his experience in the Lord and do not question it at all; the validity of his experience is between him and the Lord. I am not his judge and neither are you, my friend.

Never forget that the measure we use to judge shall be returned to us by the Almighty Himself. 

It was not my intention to come across as being such as you have labeled me. My concern is that a brother or the lost understands the fullness of Christ and places no efficacy on anything other than Him. I do apologize to him if he took it in the wrong way and will strive to word my comments differently in the future.

I appreciate your concern and guidance. 
 

Edited July 17, 2024 by Cntrysner

[Truswell]

9 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Thanks for those 15 passages!  It seems to me there are three basic ways Christians look at this matter of eternal life/salvation:

1. Saved, but through actions can loose salvation

2. Saved eternally as God's children, and through no actions can salvation be lost

3. Agrees with #2, but also sees consequences and Bema judgement for actions of God's children after being saved

I think you might be in the 1st camp, is that correct?  What I believe is #3 is the most accurate way to look at this.  Of course, what we see, determines how we interpret scripture.  For instance, I see a good part of those verses above as being about  consequences for our actions and works, not loss of eternal salvation.  

Therefore, for instance, I see the falling from grace in Galatians 5:4 (quoted above) as simply meaning that if someone chooses to follow the law, then they are no longer in the realm of grace - they are instead striving to do works to measure up.  And I see that 1 Corinthians 10:12 means when someone falls (into sin), they simply get back up, admit the sin and thank Jesus that His prevailing blood covers them from this - no big deal (and certainly not in danger of losing their eternal salvation).

(and I might also point out that the word "condemnation" used in the KJV of James 5:12 is a poor translation - the Greek word is much better rendered "judgement.") 

So, speaking in an overall way, through our own "filters" we look at these verses differently.   To me, it's way too hard to ignore the eternal aspect of the life we've been given - a life which is Christ's and cannot die.  The free gift of eternal life, making us God's children, is described and conveyed to us in dozens and dozens and dozens of verses - one would have to ignore quite the plethora of passages to believe we can loose our eternal life as His children.  In my view (view #3) the few passages that might seem (to those with view #1) to state loss of this eternal life, are actually pertaining to judgment and discipline of His children for their actions and works after receiving eternal life, which makes them His children eternally.  

Good dialog & what do you think? 

What do I think? I do not think, I know, that online chess stays true to the book. Good luck with the writer of this rule book. Trouble is, this is not a game. I wish you well.

[Vine Abider]

6 hours ago, Truswell said:

What do I think? I do not think, I know, that online chess stays true to the book. Good luck with the writer of this rule book. Trouble is, this is not a game. I wish you well.

Amen bro, and thanks!  We can only see as the Lord reveals to us, and I pray He reveals more of His vision to both of us!

[Truswell]

2 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Amen bro, and thanks!  We can only see as the Lord reveals to us, and I pray He reveals more of His vision to both of us!

If I did not heed these scriptures, and more like them, I would worry about the identity of my Lord.

(2Pe 2:20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

(2Pe 2:21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

(2Pe 3:17) Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

(Eze 18:24) But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live?

All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

(Eze 3:20-21) Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

(Gal 1:6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

(Gal 4:9) But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

1Co_10:12  Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Gal_5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Heb_4:11  Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Heb_6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Jas_5:12  But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

2Pe_1:10  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

2Pe_3:17  Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Rev_2:5  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Edited July 17, 2024 by Truswell

[Vine Abider]

41 minutes ago, Truswell said:

If I did not heed these scriptures, and more like them, I would worry about the identity of my Lord.

(2Pe 2:20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

(2Pe 2:21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

(2Pe 3:17) Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

(Eze 18:24) But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live?

All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

(Eze 3:20-21) Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

(Gal 1:6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

(Gal 4:9) But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

1Co_10:12  Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Gal_5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Heb_4:11  Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Heb_6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Jas_5:12  But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

2Pe_1:10  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

2Pe_3:17  Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Rev_2:5  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Okay and good - sounds like you want more dialog on this wonderful topic. As stated previously, I view most of those verses you've presented as pertaining to either the loss of reward and/or judgement at the Bema seat of Christ, or the negative consequences of sin, and not loss of eternal salvation.

Do you agree that there are just as many (if not many more) passages speaking of eternal security?  Therefore, as an interesting exercise, why don't you list all the verses that speak of eternal security in Christ?

To get things started, here are just 10 passages on our eternal security (which was purchased for us with the precious blood of Christ, and Who's life then came to live in us making us God's children):

John 6:39-40

1 John 5:1

John 10:28-29

Ephesians 1:12-14

Romans 8:38-39

Romans 11:29

John 6:47

Romans 4:4-8

1 John 5:13

John 5:24

(BTW: as stated before, there are dozens & dozens of eternal security verses . . .)

[Truswell]

17 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Okay and good - sounds like you want more dialog on this wonderful topic. As stated previously, I view most of those verses you've presented as pertaining to either the loss of reward and/or judgement at the Bema seat of Christ, or the negative consequences of sin, and not loss of eternal salvation.

Do you agree that there are just as many (if not many more) passages speaking of eternal security?  Therefore, as an interesting exercise, why don't you list all the verses that speak of eternal security in Christ?

To get things started, here are just 10 passages on our eternal security (which was purchased for us with the precious blood of Christ, and Who's life then came to live in us making us God's children):

John 6:39-40

1 John 5:1

John 10:28-29

Ephesians 1:12-14

Romans 8:38-39

Romans 11:29

John 6:47

Romans 4:4-8

1 John 5:13

John 5:24

(BTW: as stated before, there are dozens & dozens of eternal security verses . . .)

Correct, and King Solomon, Judas Iscariot, King Saul and others could have said the same, but they came to a sad end.

[AnOrangeCat]

1 hour ago, Truswell said:

(2Pe 2:20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

This verse seems important to the case being made. If someone who was once a believer turns their back on God and goes to Heaven anyway how is their latter end worse than their beginning? It's very difficult for me to reconcile OSAS and similar views with what this verse seems to convey.

[Cntrysner]

53 minutes ago, Truswell said:

Correct, and King Solomon, Judas Iscariot, King Saul and others could have said the same, but they came to a sad end.

Do you have scripture that they were born again?

2Co 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

What about king David were his sins any less? Just one sin brings the penalty for sin which is death.

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Truswell said:

Correct, and King Solomon, Judas Iscariot, King Saul and others could have said the same, but they came to a sad end.

Jesus Christ died for the forgiveness of the sins of all the people of the world. 

That takes into account that only the sins of those who believe in him are forgiven. 

Which leads us to understand that everyone has the God given right to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ and decides for himself to believe in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of his sins or not.

(Everyone it includes everyone whether alive or dead at the time of the Cross and all those to be born.)

Jesus Christ will Judge everyone on his decision to accept his message to have his sins forgiven in him or not. The Heavenly Father will judge all the people through Jesus Christ and He has appointed Jesus Christ to be the Judge of all the people in the world. 

That includes that Jesus has the right to judge all people on their decision to believe or to deny him for the forgiveness of their sins. 

That will include that Jesus Christ cannot Judge anyone who does not have in their hearts one of the two faith in him or the denial to believe in him. 

●...In your post there is the mention of some people who died before the Cross of Jesus Christ.

Those people they have the God given right to be judged according to their faith in Jesus Christ or their denial that Jesus Christ died for the forgiveness of their sins. 

Because they had died before the Cross the only way to hear the message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and believe or deny it it is for the Gospel to be preached to them as they were and where they were. 

Jesus Christ said that it was his mission to preach the Gospel to the dead those three days he was in the place of the dead. 

For this reason everyone who died before the Cross and Jesus found in the place of the dead heard the Good news from Jesus Christ.  

About the people named in your post how do someone knows if they believed in the Gospel of Jesus or not? God knows but not we. As we were not there with them at that time. 

We can comment about the people who were with Abraham that they all believed because they followed Abraham who believed who was waiting for the promised seed the Messiah to come to them, they were waiting for him. That was promised to Abraham. 

But about the other people the people of the Nations of the world we cannot tell. About the Israelites who were not with Abraham we can not tell. 

But if some of the people in your post were gathered to Abraham at their death then we can say that they too followed Abraham and believed in Jesus Christ and were counted to Jesus Christ. 

For this reason we cannot comment about their eternal place because we do not know. The only thing we know that the Gospel was preached to them and if they believed they are counted to Jesus Christ regardless of their past. And if they did not believe they cannot be counted to Jesus Christ. 

Because Jesus Christ will judge everyone according to their faith in him because everyone no matter who and when he lived and died has the God given right to hear the Gospel and to make it his decision to have his forgiveness of sins in Jesus Christ or not. And be Judged by Jesus Christ in this matter. 

The Heavenly Father has commended that every one regardless of the time when they were born and die and regardless of their background to be given the chance to be his children to believe in his Son Jesus Christ. 

The Heavenly Father has given his Son Jesus Christ to be the Savior of all the people in the world in his Love because he wants everyone to have the chance to be his child in Jesus Christ. 

Edited July 17, 2024 by Your closest friendnt